Jump to content
hoselpalooza

Who Pushes Off With Their Trail Leg?

147 posts / 6357 viewsLast Reply

Recommended Posts

how many of you push off with your trail foot in transition or during the downswing? any former ball players/pitchers or jumpers here who do this?

here's a video where sean foley discusses how justin rose pushes or "gets off" of the right side (should start at 3:44):

and as a former pitcher i can really relate to the movement he discusses here: 

Sean-Foley-Power-Pitching-Baseball-04.jp

Using leverage like a pitcher from the mound.

 

this is something i do and i think it's a good source of power. i focus on putting a lot of pressure into my rear heel as i load into my rear hip like tiger describes here, and just before i complete the backswing i get off of the right side with a little pushing or jumping motion that begins in the heel of the trail foot.

my last swing video shows me loading into the rear hip and foot pretty well, but the transition-to-downswing sequence wasn't ideal imo. among other things, i pushed off with the front of the trail foot which can cause me to jump out of shots and rotate too quickly. good for speed imho but not so much for consistency or the back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to hide this ad? Register for free today!

What I hear Foley describe is that during the early part of the forward swing, the pressure on Rose's trail foot is decreasing.  In my mind, "pushing" would be indicated by an increase in pressure, not a decrease.  Watching the mechanics when Sean is swinging, the trail knee doesn't really begin to extend until after his hips have rotated forward a significant amount.  If anything, that's when the "push from the right" is happening.  The lead knee does extend early, as his hips rotate.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

12 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

What I hear Foley describe is that during the early part of the forward swing, the pressure on Rose's trail foot is decreasing. In my mind, "pushing" would be indicated by an increase in pressure, not a decrease.

Yup.

12 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Watching the mechanics when Sean is swinging, the trail knee doesn't really begin to extend until after his hips have rotated forward a significant amount.  If anything, that's when the "push from the right" is happening.

It's only extending then because the right hip is pulling it forward. The heel isn't lowering or "pushing" at that stage.

I see virtually no pushing here:

And in perusing some baseball sites, it seems that most people are of the understanding that pitchers "fall" forward now, they don't "push" off the rubber.

@mvmac posted these videos in another topic, and I pointed out to you in a PM or the other topic how Sean Foley in that video was talking about the pelvis and falling left.

I'm still interested to see the swings with pressure plate data where you think you're doing this, but I've not seen it in hundreds of PGA Tour swings, nor would it really make much sense to me at this point. Nor have I seen the leg muscles doing much in muscle activation (electrodes to detect muscle activity and the like).

 

Edited by iacas
replaced duplicate video

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

What I hear Foley describe is that during the early part of the forward swing, the pressure on Rose's trail foot is decreasing.  In my mind, "pushing" would be indicated by an increase in pressure, not a decrease.  Watching the mechanics when Sean is swinging, the trail knee doesn't really begin to extend until after his hips have rotated forward a significant amount.  If anything, that's when the "push from the right" is happening.  The lead knee does extend early, as his hips rotate.  

there's a really easy way for you to feel what's being discussed here. spread your feet apart -- more than shoulder width -- and push into the ground with your right heel to shift your pressure to your left side using a similar motion to a sprinter coming off of the starting blocks. does this make sense or could i make this more clear?

if you do this right you'll notice you don't need to extend your right leg/knee to generate a good amount of force. i think this is what makes it difficult for people to understand what's happening with the naked eye alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

i think this is what makes it difficult for people to understand what's happening with the naked eye alone.

I'm not using "the naked eye alone."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yup.

It's only extending then because the right hip is pulling it forward. The heel isn't lowering or "pushing" at that stage.

I see virtually no pushing here:

And in perusing some baseball sites, it seems that most people are of the understanding that pitchers "fall" forward now, they don't "push" off the rubber.

@mvmac posted these videos in another topic, and I pointed out to you in a PM or the other topic how Sean Foley in that video was talking about the pelvis and falling left.

I'm still interested to see the swings with pressure plate data where you think you're doing this, but I've not seen it in hundreds of PGA Tour swings, nor would it really make much sense to me at this point. Nor have I seen the leg muscles doing much in muscle activation (electrodes to detect muscle activity and the like).

 

 

@iacas, the problem is it's difficult for people who are unfamiliar with the motion to see what's involved with just the naked eye.

i don't know what pitching mechanics are being taught today but i know pushing off of the ground with the inside of the trail foot is a legit way to generate tremendous arm speed. e.g. from a standstill (i.e. not a running start) behind home plate i could air mail a baseball over the left field fence of any standard size baseball park. pushing off of the ground made that possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

there's a really easy way for you to feel what's being discussed here. spread your feet apart -- more than shoulder width -- and push into the ground with your right heel to shift your pressure to your left side using a similar motion to a sprinter coming off of the starting blocks. does this make sense or could i make this more clear?

if you do this right you'll notice you don't need to extend your right leg/knee to generate a good amount of force. i think this is what makes it difficult for people to understand what's happening with the naked eye alone.

I do not think you know what you are talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Just now, iacas said:

I'm not using "the naked eye alone."

you are when you're looking at my swing and greinke's throwing motion.

1 minute ago, Phil McGleno said:

I do not think you know what you are talking about.

care to elaborate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

@iacas, the problem is it's difficult for people who are unfamiliar with the motion to see what's involved with just the naked eye.

Uhm, I'm not "unfamiliar with the motion" nor again am I using the naked eye. We were among the first dozen people to have bought a SwingCatalyst.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

i don't know what pitching mechanics are being taught today but i know pushing off of the ground with the inside of the trail foot is a legit way to generate tremendous arm speed. e.g. from a standstill (i.e. not a running start) behind home plate i could air mail a baseball over the left field fence of any standard size baseball park. pushing off of the ground made that possible.

And PGA Tour players used to think the ball started in the direction of their swing and finished where the face was pointed at impact. Feel ain't real, and as we get better understandings of things, we advance our knowledge and are better able to teach what's actually happening.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

you are when you're looking at my swing and greinke's throwing motion.

No, I'm able to use the hundreds of videos and hundreds of hours of GRF data to "see" things as they are actually happening.

I think you think your feels are more "real" than they are. And thus far all you've offered is… feels. Your video doesn't even really support what you're saying.

01rose.jpg

Six frames later Justin's foot is already banking up. Why? Because he's not pushing it downward (or away from the target… most of the shearing forces are behind him, as his hip is rotating toward the ball and forward at this point, which is why your foot kicks out backward, behind you, when it slips).

Don't push, fall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

27 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

there's a really easy way for you to feel what's being discussed here. spread your feet apart -- more than shoulder width -- and push into the ground with your right heel to shift your pressure to your left side using a similar motion to a sprinter coming off of the starting blocks. does this make sense or could i make this more clear?

if you do this right you'll notice you don't need to extend your right leg/knee to generate a good amount of force. i think this is what makes it difficult for people to understand what's happening with the naked eye alone.

Understand physics the way I do, a "push" by my right legs has to be resisted by something, most likely the inertia of my body mass.  My legs are supporting my body mass against gravity, a static situation.  If I push with my right leg, my body HAS to move, and if my body moves, my right knee has to extend.  If my right knee doesn't extend, if I don't cause any acceleration (meaning movement) in that body mass, I'm simply not pushing.  Again, you're talking about the feeling of pushing, but your description (push, but don't extend your leg) contradicts the notion that any push is going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Understand physics the way I do, a "push" by my right legs has to be resisted by something, most likely the inertia of my body mass.  My legs are supporting my body mass against gravity, a static situation.  If I push with my right leg, my body HAS to move, and if my body moves, my right knee has to extend.  If my right knee doesn't extend, if I don't cause any acceleration (meaning movement) in that body mass, I'm simply not pushing.  Again, you're talking about the feeling of pushing, but your description (push, but don't extend your leg) contradicts the notion that any push is going on.

👍🏼

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

42 minutes ago, iacas said:

@mvmac posted these videos in another topic, and I pointed out to you in a PM or the other topic how Sean Foley in that video was talking about the pelvis and falling left.

@hoselpalooza you seem to be ignoring these videos and going by what you feel is happening.

You also mentioned power players pushing off the trail foot, here is Sadlowski, maybe the longest players in the world pound for pound and you can see he's clearly not pushing off in transition. The force vector is getting smaller and it's at its smallest where you think players "push off".

JS 1.jpgJS 2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 minutes ago, mvmac said:

@hoselpalooza you seem to be ignoring these videos and going by what you feel is happening.

You also mentioned power players pushing off the trail foot, here is Sadlowski, maybe the longest players in the world pound for pound and you can see he's clearly not pushing off in transition. The force vector is getting smaller and it's at its smallest where you think players "push off".

But @mvmac you're just using your naked eye… to look at the force vectors. 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

There seems to be some ignorance around here about "pushing off" with the trail foot. i.e. that it doesn't happen during transition or part of the downswing, which for many golfers, especially some powerful hitters, is 100% wrong. that's a separate discussion though.

Here's an example of your "powerful push" off that back foot in transition.

 

Your feel ain't real buddy, and you just can't seem to get that through your head.

Dustin Johnson has the same lack of a push off the back foot in transition, as seen clearly in this video. His heel is gently lifting off the ground from nearly the moment he starts down with the swing, not pressing down into it so he can push off.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

@iacasthe videos/data you and @mvmac have shared are hardly conclusive for all golfers. 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

but I've not seen it in hundreds of PGA Tour swings

^ were you looking at force plate data for these hundreds of swings? because if you can't recognize a pitcher pushing off of the mound how could you expect to recognize it elsewhere?

as for pitchers not pushing off of the rubber, that's just nonsense. some people refer to it as "driving" off of the mound but it's the same thing. pushing occurs after initiating the forward fall. in the video you shared my guess is push off begins around 20s, when eversion of the trail foot becomes noticeable and the hands separate. at least that's when i would do it.

and according to an older post, it looks like i'm not the only person on this site who realizes this:

On 11/14/2011 at 3:18 AM, Deryck Griffith said:

I was a pitcher/center fielder and surprisingly, I realized that my pitching experience might be the biggest contributor to learning how to get my weight to the left in the golf swing.  Pushing off of the mound during a pitch really translated to pushing in a similar fashion with the inside of my right foot while I'm at the top of backswing just before the downswing starts.  Similar to pitching, the energy in your arms etc stays back until it's powered forward (in the case of the golf swing, the energy is exploded through impact).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

@iacasthe videos/data you and @mvmac have shared are hardly conclusive for all golfers.

I didn't say they were for all golfers, nor can I know what you're capable of concluding.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

^ were you looking at force plate data for these hundreds of swings?

Yes. I've seen tens of thousands (or more) "PGA Tour swings". I thought it was a given that I was talking about their swings on force plates and that I was talking about having seen hundreds of PGA Tour player swings with the associated force plate data/visuals.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

because if you can't recognize a pitcher pushing off of the mound how could you expect to recognize it elsewhere?

I don't believe pitchers push off the rubber very much. They, much like golfers, "fall" more than they "push."

That being said, this site isn't a baseball site, and I've not spent tens of thousands of hours studying pitching mechanics, so I'm not standing by what I say on that topic. I'm just pointing out that even others in baseball disagree with you about whether pitchers push off the rubber.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

as for pitchers not pushing off of the rubber, that's just nonsense.

Experts don't seem to agree with you.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

some people refer to it as "driving" off of the mound but it's the same thing.

Or "falling."

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

and according to an older post, it looks like i'm not the only person on this site who realizes this:

That's @Deryck Griffith's feel.


You've shown nothing here. No facts, no data, nada.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

5 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Here's an example of your "powerful push" off that back foot in transition.

Your feel ain't real buddy, and you just can't seem to get that through your head.

Dustin Johnson has the same lack of a push off the back foot in transition, as seen clearly in this video. His heel is gently lifting off the ground from nearly the moment he starts down with the swing, not pressing down into it so he can push off.

 

now you're just being rude and ignorant. using my first swing video after nearly a decade-long hiatus is not a good example, nor did i ever mention pushing off with my trail foot in that video. this seems like a bully tactic and i think it's inappropriate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

now you're just being rude and ignorant. using my first swing video after nearly a decade-long hiatus is not a good example, nor did i ever mention pushing off with my trail foot in that video. this seems like a bully tactic and i think it's inappropriate. 

I'm simply showing you with your own swing, as well as swings of notorious power hitters, that a push off the back foot doesn't occur in the transition to the downswing.

You seem to feel like you do this in your own personal swing. That's why I'm using an example of your own personal swing to show you that what you're feeling in the swing is not what is happening in your swing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2019 TST Partners

    PING Golf
    FlightScope Mevo
  • Posts

    • Having played many, many rounds while under the influence of marijuana I can personally attest to it not being performance enhancing.  Against the rules?  Perhaps.  But not performance enhancing. Quite the opposite. Everyone reacts differently to being high, and while it may well reduce stress it also certainly reduces one's ability to focus.  Golf requires focus.  I'd get high and kick ass for about two holes, then be all over the place. I haven't used marijuana since moving to Florida because it's not legal here, and I don't have a qualifying medicinal reason to get a prescription.  I could of course make one up, because it's not like getting a prescription is difficult, but it's not such an important thing to me that I feel the need to go out of my way.  I personally don't see a difference between drinking or smoking beyond the legal aspect - both are personal decisions, and when used responsibly should be an individual's choice.
    • Heck, I will occasionally do this when playing with my wife.  I always feel like an ass when it happens, but she's a good soul and cuts me a break.
    • As others have said, playing a course from the correct tees makes golf a lot more fun. And it makes for more birdie and eagle opportunities. Heck playing from tees even a bit shorter than you need can be fun. I had two eagles in my last round. I played with some guys who like to play a yardage between the back tees and the middle tees. That made it easier to hit par the par 5s in two, and I did just that. Screw the ego, golf is supposed to be fun.
    • I carry Titleist Vokey wedges and have for many many years. I like that I don't have to think every time I replace them. It's easy. I just get the same specs as I've had before and I know what they are going to do. I nearly always get the previous year's model. Still brand new, but the previous year saves me about 40% off the cost.  Anyway, lately I've seen a number of folks I've played with who carry the Callaway PM Grind wedges, which have grooves all over their face. Taylormade hi-toe wedges have that feature as well. I don't know if it actually makes any difference, but to my mind it totally makes sense to put the groves all over the face. It actually makes me wonder why all wedges aren't made that way.  Anyone have any thoughts about this. Why do most manufacturers leave the toe of the wedge "ungrooved"? Does it really help to have the whole face covered in groves?  On a related note, does anyone play a Hi-Toe wedge? Seems like a good idea as well, especially for lob wedges, 60 degree and the like. Seems like it would give you more surface from which to hit a shot when trying to take a bigger swing. I don't use my lob wedge that way, but it seems like it would help if I did. 
    • Offended?  No.  Annoyed?  Absolutely. I played an event in 2015.  It was my first event with this group and I unknowingly got paired with the hothead.  You know the guy.  "I used to be a 1 index!"  Now he's unable to break 90.   First hole, he hits an 'awful' drive (it landed 4 feet in the rough) and complains about it all the way to the ball.  The pin is tucked in the back-right corner of the green behind a trap.  He hits a shot about 35 feet left of the flag at the center of the green.  A good, smart shot.  He proceeds to fling his 7 iron approximately 40 yards into the fairway.   Later in the round, he hits a second shot on a par 5 that he tugged a little bit.  He got a little unlucky and it hit the cart path and kicked it to the left.  The ball came to rest in play, but near a log that, if he moved it... the ball would move as well.  He took an unplayable, chopped the ball forward a bit with his wedge and then proceeded to use his wedge as a hatchet on the log.  About his 8th smash of the wedge, the head snapped off.   Par 3 later in the round, he missed a 10 footer.  He tossed his putter in the air and let it fall to the ground.  The blade of the putter buried itself in the green about 4 feet from the hole.  He attempted to repair it, but it was evident that there was damage and SOMEONE was going to have to putt through his tantrum later in the round.   I wasn't offended by any of his actions.  A 50 year old acting like a petulant toddler?  His problem... not mine.  I was annoyed by his antics, however.   I've told this story before, but... when I was a caddie back in high school at a local country club, I had a guest of a member fling his club over a fence that bordered a local hospital.  This was on the 10th hole.  He was pissed that he hit a poor shot, so he reared back and let it fly.  It cleared the fence.  I looked at him in disbelief.  He told me to climb the fence and get the club.  I put his bag down, apologized to the member and walked back to the caddie master and told him what happened.  Shortly after, the member and his guest arrived back at the caddie area where the member paid me for the full round, tipped me nicely, took my side with the caddie master and then told his guest he'd not be welcomed back any time soon.   Throwing clubs is not acceptable and it IS poor etiquette.  The word is literally defined as: "The customary code of polite behavior in society or among members of a particular profession or group." I don't see how throwing clubs and having a tantrum on the course can be deemed anything but IMPOLITE.   CY
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Nevsteve
      Nevsteve
      (60 years old)
    2. Pab4141
      Pab4141
      (26 years old)
    3. rdpoffenberger
      rdpoffenberger
      (34 years old)
    4. Salem Golfer
      Salem Golfer
      (54 years old)
    5. stothemc
      stothemc
      (36 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...