Good Hit Ball Stalls Drops Like Its Being Pushed Down

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Zippo said:

Thanks. I believe you. But then, again, what do I correctly call the spin a topped ball has in the forward direction of travel if not "top spin" - if we don't use the term "top spin" anymore?

You’re missing the point. You can call it that but that is NOT what’s happening here.

[Zippo]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

You’re missing the point. You can call it that but that is NOT what’s happening here.

I know you're busy and I get I may be missing the point but, when you have a moment, could you please explain clearly what IS happening here? How would one go about duplicating that ball flight?

I read what you said in this thread -

The OP said in part, "good trajectory, then the ball just stalls like its being pushed down,". In the past, when I hit balls that performed similarly, I would also have said they have a good trajectory but then suddenly take a dive for the ground like a bad prize fighter and after contact with the ground, roll forward like a topped iron.

You said in the other thread, "You can hit the ball with the leading edge of the driver near to or even slightly beneath the equator of the golf ball, and if the clubhead is moving upwards, create a drive that isn't "topped" but which has topspin."

That is what I described (probably poorly) in my original post in reply to the OP. What would you expect the trajectory to be for a ball hit like that? I would expect it to not have much distance due to the poor contact and to dive for the ground - as soon as forward momentum allowed - due to the topspin.

I am not trying to be obtuse and my handle pretty much describes what I know about ball flight but I really would like to understand what causes that strange ball flight. Fortunately, it's been quite a while since I hit a ball that behaved as the OP described.

Thank you.

[iacas]

He’s not hitting topspin drives.

He said “good impact” and with his irons.

Let’s all stop talking about “topspin.”

[Zeph]

What does OP mean by "good impact" and "good trajectory" in this situation? Is 150 yards with a 7 iron a distance you get with good impact? We don't know anything about handicap I believe.

Trajectory can also be difficult to analyze, but is the ball going very high, medium or low?

If this was a somewhat high handicap player, I would assume the impact wasn't all that good and possibly not too much clubhead speed, maybe some flipping. Impact can feel okay, but the ball doesn't fly very far. A common problem being that you don't find much difference in distance with the irons, if they are consistent at all.

If someone truly hit a good shot with good impact and trajectory, and the ball behaved as described, it would have to be a defective ball and/or a wind situation. Even if you launch the ball quite high, it still gets somewhere with decent clubhead speed and impact. Unless you really send it up there, but I don't know if it would still be a good hit.

Based on what OP has written, I would say it comes down to poor impact and/or low clubhead speed.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Zeph

[wlecat]

6 hours ago, Zeph said:

What does OP mean by "good impact" and "good trajectory" in this situation? Is 150 yards with a 7 iron a distance you get with good impact? We don't know anything about handicap I believe.

Trajectory can also be difficult to analyze, but is the ball going very high, medium or low?

If this was a somewhat high handicap player, I would assume the impact wasn't all that good and possibly not too much clubhead speed, maybe some flipping. Impact can feel okay, but the ball doesn't fly very far. A common problem being that you don't find much difference in distance with the irons, if they are consistent at all.

If someone truly hit a good shot with good impact and trajectory, and the ball behaved as described, it would have to be a defective ball and/or a wind situation. Even if you launch the ball quite high, it still gets somewhere with decent clubhead speed and impact. Unless you really send it up there, but I don't know if it would still be a good hit.

Based on what OP has written, I would say it comes down to poor impact and/or low clubhead speed.

I used to be about a 3 handicap at one time, so I know what a "good impact" and "good trajectory" is.

Im 61 and coming off a 4 year layoff from a bad injury. Right now my swing speed is running about 85 mph.

The knuckle-ball theory makes sense.

What's causing this however is my question.

My left knee is a little unstable so I'm not sure how to get the coil and shift back properly with that issue in play.

When I do get those in sync I seem to pull the shot.

[Cantankerish]

Call it whatever you like.  I have experienced this phenomenon myself.  It is peculiar to watch.  It has only ever happened to me hitting balls at one particular range and only when I hit them a particular (otherwise desirable) trajectory.  I even thought perhaps there is a downdraft at that spot. 

The local pro was there once.  He saw and I asked him what it is. He told me that it is a "spin issue related to my swing path and impact angles".  That is the extent of my knowledge.

[wlecat]

9 minutes ago, Cantankerish said:

Call it whatever you like.  I have experienced this phenomenon myself.  It is peculiar to watch.  It has only ever happened to me hitting balls at one particular range and only when I hit them a particular (otherwise desirable) trajectory.  I even thought perhaps there is a downdraft at that spot. 

The local pro was there once.  He saw and I asked him what it is. He told me that it is a "spin issue related to my swing path and impact angles".  That is the extent of my knowledge.

Too bad he gave you half the answer. Were you able to correct the problem? Any idea what you did differently?

[Zippo]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

He’s not hitting topspin drives.

He said “good impact” and with his irons.

Let’s all stop talking about “topspin.”

Again. Thanks. We now know what he is NOT hitting. What IS he hitting? What is causeing this ball flight? Details.

[Missouri Swede]

3 hours ago, Zippo said:

Again. Thanks. We now know what he is NOT hitting. What IS he hitting? What is causeing this ball flight? Details.

You could go to https://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/

Play around with settings (especially spin rpm, launch angle) to see what happens when you increase the spin.

[Zippo]

9 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

You could go to https://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/

Play around with settings (especially spin rpm, launch angle) to see what happens when you increase the spin.

Thank you. Very cool tool and I very much appreciate you pointing me to it. Unfortunately, it only allows back and side spin and limits back spin to 1000 rpm so not much help in this case. I'll go with the explanation from @Cantankerish and leave it at that as there does not seem to be a more detailed answer available. Thanks again.

[Zeph]

1 hour ago, Zippo said:

Thank you. Very cool tool and I very much appreciate you pointing me to it. Unfortunately, it only allows back and side spin and limits back spin to 1000 rpm so not much help in this case. I'll go with the explanation from @Cantankerish and leave it at that as there does not seem to be a more detailed answer available. Thanks again.

What more than back- and sidespin do you need? The ball always has backspin, and if the shot is not perfectly lined up, the axis of the backspin will tilt to either side.

[boogielicious]

7 hours ago, Zippo said:

Thank you. Very cool tool and I very much appreciate you pointing me to it. Unfortunately, it only allows back and side spin and limits back spin to 1000 rpm so not much help in this case. I'll go with the explanation from @Cantankerish and leave it at that as there does not seem to be a more detailed answer available. Thanks again.

It does not limit backspin to 1000 rpm. I just did an 8000 rpm shot to simulate an 8 iron. Play with it some more. Put H angle at 0 and R axis at 0 to make a straight shot. Then keep launch constant and vary spin to see what happens. And remember launch speed is ball speed not club head speed. So a driver for me would be 135 mph and not my 93 mph swing speed.

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

It does not limit backspin to 1000 rpm. I just did an 8000 rpm shot to simulate an 8 iron. Play with it some more. Put H angle at 0 and R axis at 0 to make a straight shot. Then keep launch constant and vary spin to see what happens. And remember launch speed is ball speed not club head speed. So a driver for me would be 135 mph and not my 93 mph swing speed.

I think he meant on the low end.

[wlecat]

This physics application is all well and good, however I feel the discussion has gotten hijacked by it.

The real question is what's causing the problem. Coming in to steep, too shallow, blade pitch, what?

[Cantankerish]

23 hours ago, wlecat said:

Too bad he gave you half the answer. Were you able to correct the problem? Any idea what you did differently?

He did not.  It was a flippant sort of observation.

 

EDIT: It only happened to me a few times while I was experimenting with my drive.  I do not even know how to recreate it.  But it has gone away.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Cantankerish
Incomplete

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, wlecat said:

This physics application is all well and good, however I feel the discussion has gotten hijacked by it.

The real question is what's causing the problem. Coming in to steep, too shallow, blade pitch, what?

We can't really solve this without knowing more about the actual shots. Your description is, unfortunately, not as helpful because it cannot necessarily be counted upon to provide information, just observations, which may or may not be accurate.

[wlecat]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

We can't really solve this without knowing more about the actual shots. Your description is, unfortunately, not as helpful because it cannot necessarily be counted upon.

What do you need to know? I was hitting a 7 iron and the phenomenom caused the ball to drop at about 100 yards, not much roll, the trajectory was medium height at full swing with a regular shaft and forged head at about 85mph.

The knuckle-ball seems to make the most sense, what would cause the dynamics that would result in that flight.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, wlecat said:

What do you need to know?

Actual data. Video. Knowledge of the conditions and/or the range balls that were being used. Something that goes beyond what you think you see.

You can't very easily create a knuckle ball at all with a 7-iron that's hit with "good impact" as you said in the OP.