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Distance Is Key - Average Money vs Driving Distance graphs

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15 hours ago, Casualgolfer said:

I know this is a hot topic on the forum but I don't 100% agree with the whole distance is king idea when it applies to mid and higher handicap guys like myself.

I'll keep this short because it's in the Tour Talk forum, not the Golf Talk forum, but this isn't something you can "agree" or "disagree" with because we have the facts here. Distance is still important - actually, it's more important - to amateur golfers.

Here's one such supporting fact:

15 hours ago, Casualgolfer said:

Of course it will be easier to score when you are closer to the pin…

You should have stopped there.

15 hours ago, Casualgolfer said:

If you play with alot of high handicappers you see they generally struggle greatly with shots within 100 yards and putting.

You're talking about one off situations, and you're also attempting to take what you see with your eyes versus what we can actually determine to be true with statistics. I'm going to trust the math, not what you think you see.

15 hours ago, Casualgolfer said:

Now I like going driver wedge into some par 5's but if I'm not on I'm better off hitting my 2 iron and getting on in 3 instead of 4 or 5 due to a terrible drive.

The fact that you have the option to hit an iron off the tee is a testament to your length and supports the idea that distance is important.

13 hours ago, Keep It Simple said:

But the longest hitters in the world are not playing on the PGA Tour which lends support to the premise it is possible hitting the ball too far is bad on the pocket book.

They're literally playing a different sport, with completely different rules.

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8 hours ago, iacas said:

I'll keep this short because it's in the Tour Talk forum, not the Golf Talk forum, but this isn't something you can "agree" or "disagree" with because we have the facts here. Distance is still important - actually, it's more important - to amateur golfers.

Here's one such supporting fact:

You should have stopped there.

You're talking about one off situations, and you're also attempting to take what you see with your eyes versus what we can actually determine to be true with statistics. I'm going to trust the math, not what you think you see.

The fact that you have the option to hit an iron off the tee is a testament to your length and supports the idea that distance is important.

They're literally playing a different sport, with completely different rules.

Kinda figured it would strike a chord with you from what I have read on past threads and I don't entirely appreciate the condescending nature of the delivery of your post. I actually didn't realize it was a tour pros section when I replied as I'm still new around here.  In short most statistics I see are based off of people who actually keep statistics like pros. Also alot of better golfers carry a real handicap and know it. I don't play enough to carry one nor do I care to own one really as I only play for fun with friends as do the vast majority of recreational golfers. I would like to see more data from weekend hackers and bogey golfers. I am aware that statistically speaking it is better to hit longer but there are 2 extremes to every side of a statistical study. In my limited world of golf I play with a bunch of ex college baseball players like myself. We all are much longer than your average Joe but tend to punished badly on wayward shots. Would you give a 4 year old a high powered rifle to play with? They would certainly have lots of power but wouldn't be able to  handle it and it would be a bit dangerous and reckless to let them use it. Something more suitable to the skill set would be more appropriate. That may be a bad analogy but there are a lot of people like myself that don't carry handicaps that have tons of swing speed that are better off in a better playing position after the tee shot than 300+ in the trees. How far does the average hacker hit? 240 maybe... Add 100 yards to that at the same skill level and see how things go. Based on your statistics I should be playing professional golf lol or at least breaking 80 more than twice in my life. Distance is great but it needs to be harnessed with equal amounts of skill to make it work. You may want to take a step back some time and realize there are those that don't actually need to be longer all the time to produce lower scores at the amateur level. From what I understand you are a good golfer.... I am not. I shoot mid 80's on a decent day. And please dont mock me about what "I think I see" please. Until you have been in those shoes you don't have a clue honestly. 

To get back on topic I completely agree that these pros should hit it further so they can collect those checks! Those poor guys driving 280 need to take some steroids lol.

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33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

Kinda figured it would strike a chord with you from what I have read on past threads and I don't entirely appreciate the condescending nature of the delivery of your post.

Not one word of my post is condescending. Not one word. If you need to tell yourself that to write off what I've written, by all means, you do you. I'm posting so that you and anyone else who has to read what I say might learn something, or have something to discuss.

33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

In short most statistics I see are based off of people who actually keep statistics like pros.

I've got a lot of statistics that aren't related to the pros. So does Mark Broadie. So do many others, like GAME Golf and Arccos.

Distance helps quite a bit, at every level of the game. Like I said, it's long left the realm of "opinion." If it's not a "fact" now it's as close as it can be to one.

33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

I would like to see more data from weekend hackers and bogey golfers.

Then go find it.

But I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who HAS sought out (or created) a ton of that data. You're speaking from the perspective of your observations.

33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

I am aware that statistically speaking it is better to hit longer but there are 2 extremes to every side of a statistical study.

What does that even mean?

33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

In my limited world of golf I play with a bunch of ex college baseball players like myself.

Nobody's talking about individual stuff or tiny sample sizes.

Furthermore, I could almost guarantee you that if you just lopped 30 yards off everyone's tee shots and 20 off their irons, they'd score worse. Yes, they'd keep more balls in play, but they'd also be hitting four or five more clubs into EVERY green.

33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

Would you give a 4 year old a high powered rifle to play with?

:hmm: That's got nothing to do with this and is a horrible analogy.

33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

Based on your statistics I should be playing professional golf lol or at least breaking 80 more than twice in my life.

You don't seem to understand how statistics work. Generally speaking they're not applicable to ONE person. You don't take a mountain of data, find the trends that apply generally to everyone, and apply them accurately to any one person.

The average American male is probably 5'9" and 210 pounds or whatever… that does not mean that EVERY American male is that 5'9"/210.

33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

You may want to take a step back some time and realize there are those that don't actually need to be longer all the time to produce lower scores at the amateur level.

When did I ever say any such thing?

33 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

And please dont mock me about what "I think I see" please. Until you have been in those shoes you don't have a clue honestly.

That's not mocking you. It's a truth. I don't need to be "in your shoes" because you're seeing only a very, very small segment of "golfers" and even a tiny segment of golfers who shoot the scores you shoot, and a tiny segment of golfers who hit the ball as far as you do on average.

You don't know enough about what you're seeing to properly and/or accurately categorize it. If someone misses an eight-footer for par, an bogeys the hole, you probably can't backtrack through every shot on that hole and tell you where they lost the stroke against a scratch golfer. I could. It's my job to know this stuff, too, though, so that's not a slight against you at all.

BTW, longer hitters also tend to be more accurate:

 At the end of the day, we're not talking about even a small group of people. What you're saying may be true for your small group of people. It's not true generally.

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15 hours ago, Casualgolfer said:

Kinda figured it would strike a chord with you from what I have read on past threads and I don't entirely appreciate the condescending nature of the delivery of your post. I actually didn't realize it was a tour pros section when I replied as I'm still new around here.  In short most statistics I see are based off of people who actually keep statistics like pros. Also alot of better golfers carry a real handicap and know it. I don't play enough to carry one nor do I care to own one really as I only play for fun with friends as do the vast majority of recreational golfers. I would like to see more data from weekend hackers and bogey golfers. I am aware that statistically speaking it is better to hit longer but there are 2 extremes to every side of a statistical study. In my limited world of golf I play with a bunch of ex college baseball players like myself. We all are much longer than your average Joe but tend to punished badly on wayward shots. Would you give a 4 year old a high powered rifle to play with? They would certainly have lots of power but wouldn't be able to  handle it and it would be a bit dangerous and reckless to let them use it. Something more suitable to the skill set would be more appropriate. That may be a bad analogy but there are a lot of people like myself that don't carry handicaps that have tons of swing speed that are better off in a better playing position after the tee shot than 300+ in the trees. How far does the average hacker hit? 240 maybe... Add 100 yards to that at the same skill level and see how things go. Based on your statistics I should be playing professional golf lol or at least breaking 80 more than twice in my life. Distance is great but it needs to be harnessed with equal amounts of skill to make it work. You may want to take a step back some time and realize there are those that don't actually need to be longer all the time to produce lower scores at the amateur level. From what I understand you are a good golfer.... I am not. I shoot mid 80's on a decent day. And please dont mock me about what "I think I see" please. Until you have been in those shoes you don't have a clue honestly. 

To get back on topic I completely agree that these pros should hit it further so they can collect those checks! Those poor guys driving 280 need to take some steroids lol.

 I’m not sure where you read condescension in Erik’s response. It is not condescending at all. And no one is telling you that you need to hit longer either. These are just facts based on a lot of data gathered from pros and amateurs. For all amateurs and pros collectively, players who hit longer tend to score lower. They have easier approach shots because they are using higher lofted clubs and are more accurate with those than long irons and woods.

Even in your own experience you have to see that hitting a 9 iron to a green is easier than a 6 iron. We can all recall a time when we hit a 3W to a green, but boy is it easier with a PW.

We all know of guys who can hit it really far but are wild.  But I also know guys who are short hitters and wild. We know old guys who are short hitters that score low because they hit it down the middle every time too. But guaranteed they hit it longer when they were younger and probably down the middle too. So picking one-up examples doesn’t really mean much. We are talking about all golfers.

Please don’t read emotions into posts either. I have added no emotion here and neither did Erik in his post. 

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I see way more people who hit it offline, hit the ball 180-220 yards off the tee. 

Heres another advantage. Let’s say I hit it 60 yards farther than the next guy. I can club down to a hybrid to match my opponents driver. Now I’m hitting a club with more loft which is more accurate due to spin loft. 

About 6 years ago I played in a shamble. My self and this other guy hit it a good ways. My dad and his buddy, both who hit it 190-220 at the time, shot amazing rounds. They were hitting mid or short irons all day versus long irons and hybrids for their approach shots. 

If you don’t think distance is and advantage. Play a round we’re you take your current drive and walk forward 50 yards and then play your next shot. 

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On 8/2/2019 at 6:06 AM, iacas said:

Distance is still important - actually, it's more important - to amateur golfers.

Yes...LSW taught me this and how to clean up my short game first and work on distance (I work on speed but I won't get off topic). The distance and accuracy of tour players absolutely amazes me. How can Rory hit a 6 iron so far? They are elite athletes who train, train, train. The short hitters also elite athletes can have great success, like Zach Johnson, but it seems to fade (no pun) as more of the young long hitters come on tour. I wish the graphs could show that progression. Best, -Marv

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8 hours ago, boogielicious said:

 I’m not sure where you read condescension in Erik’s response. It is not condescending at all. And no one is telling you that you need to hit longer either. These are just facts based on a lot of data gathered from pros and amateurs. For all amateurs and pros collectively, players who hit longer tend to score lower. They have easier approach shots because they are using higher lofted clubs and are more accurate with those than long irons and woods.

Even in your own experience you have to see that hitting a 9 iron to a green is easier than a 6 iron. We can all recall a time when we hit a 3W to a green, but boy is it easier with a PW.

We all know of guys who can hit it really far but are wild.  But I also know guys who are short hitters and wild. We know old guys who are short hitters that score low because they hit it down the middle every time too. But guaranteed they hit it longer when they were younger and probably down the middle too. So picking one-up examples doesn’t really mean much. We are talking about all golfers.

Please don’t read emotions into posts either. I have added no emotion here and neither did Erik in his post. 

The condescending part of it was when he referred to what I "think" I see like what I'm seeing is wrong just because it doesnt match the numbers.. really pushes the wrong button with me. It's not what "I think I see" it is what I see and is factual based on real experience not what  I read on a study printed somewhere not that it may not be true. For reference I have played 2 separate rounds where I played 2 separate balls... One with a driver where applicable and one with a 4 iron. In both cases I shot a stroke or two lower with my 4 iron for whatever reason. Could have used my 3 wood off the box but didn't and was before I made my 2 iron.. I really like hitting my driver too but it isn't always practical being super long. There is a point where you need to back it down. If you did a study of long drive guys you would most likely find they don't play their long drive drivers during most rounds. Instead you will find most of them play drivers that are much more controllable. That statistical study would show something entirely different wouldn't it. Most people though don't hit it far and would see scores drop going a bit longer but there is a point of diminishing returns and definitely a point where it will start to hurt your scores. Trust me 350+ drives come with a bad price to pay if you aren't on your absolute A game. If you haven't been there then it's hard to understand I guess. Just seems like these type topics there are some who just come at you with a I'm right and your wrong type of attitude when in actuality they have no idea what's going on with someone's personal game and abilities. If 75 percent of people would benefit from distance gain then what are the 25 percent supposed to do? Maybe I should just learn to "putt for dough" since I can already "drive for show". Or maybe I should try and gain 10mph of club head speed and try out for long drive.

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On 8/1/2019 at 3:16 PM, Casualgolfer said:

I know this is a hot topic on the forum but I don't 100% agree with the whole distance is king idea when it applies to mid and higher handicap guys like myself. I think little of the professional stats like that because they are tuned instruments of golf with a complete game. Of course it will be easier to score when you are closer to the pin if you are a pro. If you play with alot of high handicappers you see they generally struggle greatly with shots within 100 yards and putting.. I know I did and sometimes still do. Bomb and gouge doesn't really work for bogey golfers in my experience. For what it's worth I can drive 350+ yards at times and it can be a bad double edged sword. There is a limit I think of skill vs physical ability that needs to be harnessed. Pros have met that limit mostly. Now I like going driver wedge into some par 5's but if I'm not on I'm better off hitting my 2 iron and getting on in 3 instead of 4 or 5 due to a terrible drive. Right now I have been mainly working on my 100 yard and in pitch shots with my 56* to help me score after a good drive. Not trying to stir a pot here just providing an example of my limited experiences with myself and my usual playing groups.

I played with a beast from my office the other day. This 30 year old was out there pushing 350 on a couple of holes. I beat him by maybe 10 strokes on my home course, which he had never played. He had a good one: "I'd rather triple bogey like a man than par like a pussy." I got a laugh out of that.

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1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

The condescending part of it was when he referred to what I "think" I see like what I'm seeing is wrong just because it doesnt match the numbers.. really pushes the wrong button with me. It's not what "I think I see" it is what I see and is factual based on real experience not what  I read on a study printed somewhere not that it may not be true. For reference I have played 2 separate rounds where I played 2 separate balls... One with a driver where applicable and one with a 4 iron. In both cases I shot a stroke or two lower with my 4 iron for whatever reason. Could have used my 3 wood off the box but didn't and was before I made my 2 iron.. I really like hitting my driver too but it isn't always practical being super long. There is a point where you need to back it down. If you did a study of long drive guys you would most likely find they don't play their long drive drivers during most rounds. Instead you will find most of them play drivers that are much more controllable. That statistical study would show something entirely different wouldn't it. Most people though don't hit it far and would see scores drop going a bit longer but there is a point of diminishing returns and definitely a point where it will start to hurt your scores. Trust me 350+ drives come with a bad price to pay if you aren't on your absolute A game. If you haven't been there then it's hard to understand I guess. Just seems like these type topics there are some who just come at you with a I'm right and your wrong type of attitude when in actuality they have no idea what's going on with someone's personal game and abilities. If 75 percent of people would benefit from distance gain then what are the 25 percent supposed to do? Maybe I should just learn to "putt for dough" since I can already "drive for show". Or maybe I should try and gain 10mph of club head speed and try out for long drive.

Please use paragraphs, it makes posts easier to read.

You are still talking about limited experiences and not all golfers as a whole. And we are talking about golf on courses and not long drive. That is a different sport.

This site was started to help all golfers play better. The information given in this thread is true and it can help golfers play better. There are times when our drivers are off and it may make sense just to get it in the fairway. But we should work on the driver because it will give us 30 more yards than our 3W. And those 30 yards can, over the long haul, help lower our scores. And today’s drivers are much more forgiving than drivers of the past and fairway woods in terms of distance vs off center hits. So it makes sense to work on them to gain the distance.

So to help all golfers, it is recommended to work on distance as a skill. Nicklaus talked about it and so have many instructors past and present.

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1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

The condescending part of it was when he referred to what I "think" I see like what I'm seeing is wrong just because it doesnt match the numbers.. really pushes the wrong button with me.

Again, nothing I said was condescending. You misread that part.

You don't have the eye or knowledge to fully understand everything. You "think" you see a guy losing a ton of shots because of his length mixed with wildness, but you're:

  • considering only a teeny tiny sample size
  • likely not considering the many fractions of a stroke saved by the length of the guys you're talking about

Those are the two biggies.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

It's not what "I think I see" it is what I see and is factual based on real experience not what I read on a study printed somewhere not that it may not be true.

First, it's not "a study."

Second, again, what you "think" was not about what you SEE but what you determine as the truth - the strokes gained or lost, etc. - from what you see. People are generally very bad about this until they've spent a LOT of time immersing themselves in these things. I've spent that time.

I'll be the first to admit that you're talking about people I've never seen… but I don't have to have seen them to know the general stats, and you have to acknowledge that you're talking about a few people. These things are general, not applicable to everyone individually. I already covered this with the 5'9" comment.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

For reference I have played 2 separate rounds where I played 2 separate balls... One with a driver where applicable and one with a 4 iron. In both cases I shot a stroke or two lower with my 4 iron for whatever reason. Could have used my 3 wood off the box but didn't and was before I made my 2 iron.. 

  1. That's not a "reference" at all. It's an incredibly small sample size.
  2. Your length allowed you to hit that 4I off the tee and still score okay. Length was an advantage. Make the average player hit a 4I all day and they won't score as well.
1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

I really like hitting my driver too but it isn't always practical being super long.

Nobody here has said "always" in this way except you just now.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

If you did a study of long drive guys you would most likely find they don't play their long drive drivers during most rounds.

That's neither here nor there. They still have a major advantage with the speed that they've got.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

Instead you will find most of them play drivers that are much more controllable.

They're not out there dinking it 240 either, dude.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

That statistical study would show something entirely different wouldn't it.

No, it wouldn't.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

Most people though don't hit it far and would see scores drop going a bit longer but there is a point of diminishing returns and definitely a point where it will start to hurt your scores.

There's really no point at which distance "will start to hurt your scores" because if your driver goes 360, you could always just hit a hybrid 270 or something.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

Trust me 350+ drives come with a bad price to pay if you aren't on your absolute A game.

Thanks, but I'll trust the math.

And if you're talking about YOUR game only, well, I have no comment, because I don't know it at all. I can only speak to general information.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

Just seems like these type topics there are some who just come at you with a I'm right and your wrong type of attitude when in actuality they have no idea what's going on with someone's personal game and abilities.

Unless I'm talking about one of my Tour players or something, I'm almost never talking about any one person's game. That's virtually pointless here.

1 hour ago, Casualgolfer said:

If 75 percent of people would benefit from distance gain then what are the 25 percent supposed to do? Maybe I should just learn to "putt for dough" since I can already "drive for show". Or maybe I should try and gain 10mph of club head speed and try out for long drive.

This feels like trolling, because if you're inaccurate with the driver, you can't "drive" for anything right now - dough or show.

"Drive for show, putt for dough" is as close to the opposite of what's true as anything else.

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At a Blackjack table I saw a guy take a hit with 14 while  the dealer was showing a 6. He got a 7 and won! Guess that rule is out the door! 

Edited by Vinsk

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On 8/3/2019 at 5:32 PM, iacas said:

Again, nothing I said was condescending. You misread that part.

You don't have the eye or knowledge to fully understand everything. You "think" you see a guy losing a ton of shots because of his length mixed with wildness, but you're:

  • considering only a teeny tiny sample size
  • likely not considering the many fractions of a stroke saved by the length of the guys you're talking about

Those are the two biggies.

First, it's not "a study."

Second, again, what you "think" was not about what you SEE but what you determine as the truth - the strokes gained or lost, etc. - from what you see. People are generally very bad about this until they've spent a LOT of time immersing themselves in these things. I've spent that time.

I'll be the first to admit that you're talking about people I've never seen… but I don't have to have seen them to know the general stats, and you have to acknowledge that you're talking about a few people. These things are general, not applicable to everyone individually. I already covered this with the 5'9" comment.

  1. That's not a "reference" at all. It's an incredibly small sample size.
  2. Your length allowed you to hit that 4I off the tee and still score okay. Length was an advantage. Make the average player hit a 4I all day and they won't score as well.

Nobody here has said "always" in this way except you just now.

That's neither here nor there. They still have a major advantage with the speed that they've got.

They're not out there dinking it 240 either, dude.

No, it wouldn't.

There's really no point at which distance "will start to hurt your scores" because if your driver goes 360, you could always just hit a hybrid 270 or something.

Thanks, but I'll trust the math.

And if you're talking about YOUR game only, well, I have no comment, because I don't know it at all. I can only speak to general information.

Unless I'm talking about one of my Tour players or something, I'm almost never talking about any one person's game. That's virtually pointless here.

This feels like trolling, because if you're inaccurate with the driver, you can't "drive" for anything right now - dough or show.

"Drive for show, putt for dough" is as close to the opposite of what's true as anything else.

Definitely not trolling... Read my other posts... guess I will just jump on the bandwagon then since I don't entirely agree with you. I guess just disregard anything I have said in this thread since it is of no value. Guess if I want to shoot lower scores I should start working on my distance more often. 

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2 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

Guess if I want to shoot lower scores I should start working on my distance more often. 

Distance comes from hitting the ball solid and having good swing speed. Of course, by improving your swing you will do both, gain distances and lower scoring. Your snarky comment is correct if you think about it differently. 

If you actually read the posts you will realize no one is saying that distance is the absolute reason to shoot lower scores. It's just a big advantage. At the amateur level and on the PGA Tour. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

Guess if I want to shoot lower scores I should start working on my distance more often. 

Or you know, accept that you're an outlier and the following is true:

  • General advice about the majority of golfers probably doesn't apply to you
  • Your advice based on your own game and observations probably doesn't apply to others

That seems far more productive than getting all riled up arguing over the fact that distance is an advantage in golf.

If you're too wild hitting it 350, take a little off and 3/4 it 300 with more control. Or take a hybrid and hit it 270. Or a long iron and hit it 250. At some point one of those things will work for you and gives you better control over your game. You know who I can't say that to? 99% of other golfers. They can't dial it back for more control and hit it that far. That's called an advantage.

There's literally no such thing as hitting it too far or swinging too fast in golf. If someone who swings fast and wild doesn't know how to dial it back for control, that just means they don't really know how to play golf. They can swing, but playing golf is about getting the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible.

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22 minutes ago, Casualgolfer said:

I guess just disregard anything I have said in this thread since it is of no value.

@iacas has addressed your opinions and you’ve disregarded his facts. Helluva way to carry a discussion. 

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@iacas, I like that chart of expected score improvements per 20 yards. I am currently shooting mid-high nineties, and I think you know a bit of my story, as you have responded in other threads. I just purchased a driver and 4W online that I will be practicing at the range with as soon as they arrive. If I am currently hitting my 4i 180 off the tee, and when I've borrowed newer drivers in the past they have gone 240-260, is it reasonable to assume I will be a better than bogey golfer once I learn them and take them out on the course?

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30 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

If I am currently hitting my 4i 180 off the tee, and when I've borrowed newer drivers in the past they have gone 240-260, is it reasonable to assume I will be a better than bogey golfer once I learn them and take them out on the course?

Just because you (or anyone) can hit it 240-260 doesn't automatically mean you will be better than a bogey golfer, there is obviously much more to golf than just the tee shot. 

But what hitting it 240-260 instead of 180 should mean for you is that you will be hitting 6-7 clubs lower into greens for your second shots. On a 360 yd par 4 you'd be hitting driver - wedge instead of 4 iron - 4 iron. You have a significantly greater chance of getting a GIR with a wedge from 100yds than you do with a 4 iron from 180 yds. 

So it means that your GIR should increase, your proximity on your approach shots should decrease, more looks for birdie, etc which should all ultimately lead to lower scores.

Notice I said "should lead to lower scores" because obviously if you thin half of those wedges over the green, chunk a bunch of chip shots and 3 putt half the greens, you won't be better than a bogey golfer even if all your drives went 250 and split the fairway.

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  • Posts

    • Today’s Session 12-3-20 Goals Internal rotation of trail hip Wide backswing  7i Swings     Goal 1: internal rotation of trail hip: Looks decent. Trail knee is facing camera (FO). It feels like my trail groin is “sinking” Goal 2: Wide takeaway Pretty happy with the takeaway width -while succeeding with Goal 1. Cannot have a session without annoyances. Not happy with downswing steepness. But I must make goals 1-2 more automatic first.
    • Ha. I’ve got several good stories about one of my friends. Whenever my brother and I play with him, he talks a lot of junk to me about how my bro is better than me, which is false. We joined up with him on the 6th hole the other day, and he said, “Hope your brother isn’t beating you too bad.” He loves to try to get into my head.
    • Never have, and never will pull any of this stuff on anyone I play against If I can't win, or lose, with my clubs, I have no business playing. I have had some guys say things to me, and it really helps motivate me, but I really think very poorly of guys that try that garbage. I'm much more into sportsmanship than gamesmanship. I really think it has no place in the game.
    • Honestly, I am not worried about it.  I am not scarred of COVID.  I respect everyone's opinion. I work in hospitals from the smallest to the largest one's in the country.  I deal with infectious control to EVS.  From NYC to California during this pandemic.  I know how they feel about it from an internal point of view.   I was more concerned about my safety when I crossed the border in the 1990's to work in Tijuana then going into any hospital in this country today.  I have and still go into the most dangerous parts of any city in this country and have done so since the 1990's as well as foreign countries.  Nothing catches your attention faster then staring at an M60 Machine Gun pointed directly at the van you are in. COVID is a virus, it does not scare me.  I understand other people's fear of it and respect that.  There are a lot more deadly situations I can come into contact with that a mask and washing my hands frequently will not help. You seam to be a really nice guy.  Hopefully when this calms down and it will we can meet and play golf together.  I would really enjoy that.
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