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The Flush

Fitting Results : Wilson C300 Forged

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My 16 year old son went for his first ever iron fitting today with an independent fitter. The recommended iron set is the Wilson Staff C300 Forged with ACCRA iSeries Tour 90i TiMesh stiff shafts and Tour Velvet Align grips. We are going to receive the FlightScope data from all clubs that he tried, but I haven't seen it yet.  I wasn't there because I had to work. My son says he was hitting a 6 iron 185 carry/200 total. He said the C300 Forged was much better than his cheap Strata irons as well as better than everything else he tried in both distance and dispersion. I don't have exact pricing to have the fitter build the clubs yet. He had to leave for the job with health insurance and has not written everything up yet. We are free to take the data and buy from anyplace we would like.

Wilson will sell the same 7 club set of 5i-GW for $875.49, but with Fujikura Speeder PRO 78i S-Flex .370 Graphite or Fujikura PRO 85i S-Flex .355 Graphite shafts and Tour Velvet standard grips.  The ACCRA shafts are not available through Wilson.  What are the differences between these shafts and the ACCRA in both performance and cost? Any good alternates to the ACCRA.

What other clubs offer the same or better performance for equal or less money than the C300 Forged? Most reviews of these have been generally positive.  Does anyone here have hands on experience with them?

I really hope the fitter's final cost is not much more or less than through Wilson so that I can buy local and have local support if ever necessary.

We hope to do a driver and woods fitting soon too.

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21 minutes ago, The Flush said:

My 16 year old son went for his first ever iron fitting today with an independent fitter. The recommended iron set is the Wilson Staff C300 Forged with ACCRA iSeries Tour 90i TiMesh stiff shafts and Tour Velvet Align grips. We are going to receive the FlightScope data from all clubs that he tried, but I haven't seen it yet.  I wasn't there because I had to work. My son says he was hitting a 6 iron 185 carry/200 total. He said the C300 Forged was much better than his cheap Strata irons as well as better than everything else he tried in both distance and dispersion. I don't have exact pricing to have the fitter build the clubs yet. He had to leave for the job with health insurance and has not written everything up yet. We are free to take the data and buy from anyplace we would like.

Wilson will sell the same 7 club set of 5i-GW for $875.49, but with Fujikura Speeder PRO 78i S-Flex .370 Graphite or Fujikura PRO 85i S-Flex .355 Graphite shafts and Tour Velvet standard grips.  The ACCRA shafts are not available through Wilson.  What are the differences between these shafts and the ACCRA in both performance and cost? Any good alternates to the ACCRA.

What other clubs offer the same or better performance for equal or less money than the C300 Forged? Most reviews of these have been generally positive.  Does anyone here have hands on experience with them?

I really hope the fitter's final cost is not much more or less than through Wilson so that I can buy local and have local support if ever necessary.

We hope to do a driver and woods fitting soon too.

I can’t imagine needing Accra shafts. That name has popped up before...just silly imo. That’s just going high dollar for no real reason. @Adam C can suggest a similar more cost effective shaft.

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Thanks Vinsk.  I know nothing.  That's why I am asking. I look forward to Adam's thoughts. I want to be able to at least ask intelligent questions when I go talk to the fitter.

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14 minutes ago, The Flush said:

Thanks Vinsk.  I know nothing.  That's why I am asking. I look forward to Adam's thoughts. I want to be able to at least ask intelligent questions when I go talk to the fitter.

Yeah that’s good. Adam’s a club builder and is good with this stuff. 

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I still haven't talked to the club fitter, but plan to stop by this afternoon.

What little feed back I have from him is:

Quote

 

Suffice to stay he needs an iron head that has little to medium offset to keep him in the middle.

He did well with two shafts 1) the rifle 5.0 and 2) accra iseries 90.

The speed, smash factor, spin etc were all very close except the dispersion. The Accra shaft produced a VERY small landing pattern.

 

What is it about the ACCRA that produces the better dispersion?  What other shafts have the same characteristics? I think that the ACCRA 90 is a stiff flex and the Rifle 5.0 is a R+ flex, is that correct? What difference does that make? How many balls did he hit with each shaft and is it statistically significant to really tell the difference?

It appears the ACCRA cost about $75 each or $525 for the set of 7.  If I am looking at the right thing, the Rifle could cost only $170 for a set of 8 on Amazon. How many stokes/round will the extra $350 save?  I still don't know how much this set will cost with any shaft.

Edited by The Flush

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1 hour ago, The Flush said:

I still haven't talked to the club fitter, but plan to stop by this afternoon.

What little feed back I have from him is:

What is it about the ACCRA that produces the better dispersion?  What other shafts have the same characteristics? I think that the ACCRA 90 is a stiff flex and the Rifle 5.0 is a R+ flex, is that correct? What difference does that make? How many balls did he hit with each shaft and is it statistically significant to really tell the difference?

It appears the ACCRA cost about $75 each or $525 for the set of 7.  If I am looking at the right thing, the Rifle could cost only $170 for a set of 8 on Amazon. How many stokes/round will the extra $350 save?  I still don't know how much this set will cost with any shaft.

On the bright side, those irons are some of the lowest cost per iron vs some of the other Forged stuff out there! Less than $100 a iron on the sites I browse!

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I think a lot of this depends on what level of golfer your son is trying to achieve. If he plays purely for fun, you can probably go a cheaper route vs if your son is a very good golfer looking to go to a D1 school for a full ride you may want to get the best fit which will be a bit more expensive.

It may be worth while to talk to the fitter and give him a price range you are looking to fall into, he may be able to tell your best options or refit to that price range.

Another idea could be to buy a used set of irons in very good shape and reshaft them with the better shaft. That should save you some money and help offset the expensive shafts. So instead of paying $875 for the new irons and $525 for the shafts, you can pick the irons up for $400 and pay the $525 for the shafts.

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20 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I can’t imagine needing Accra shafts. That name has popped up before...just silly imo. That’s just going high dollar for no real reason. @Adam C can suggest a similar more cost effective shaft.

This falls into that category of club fitter shenanigans. Those heads are solid, I've no issue with them. However, from there we go off the rails big time. As you have pointed out, ACCRA shafts are not a option, either stock or upgrade for the C300. I am sure that's just a coincidence! O wait, it's not. This is right out of the Club Champion style playbook. They know that if they recommend a stock offering from an OEM, then you are likely to just order direct from that OEM. However, if they convince you that you will be better suited in some random aftermarket brand (the favorites right now seem to be ACCRA and Oban), that you can't order from the OEM, you are more likely to order from them. Notice again that the grip recommendation is also not an option from Wilson. Funny how that works, isn't it.

Is that ACCRA shaft a good shaft? I am sure it is. I haven't used it but I am sure it's fine. Is it better or better for your son than any number of other shafts, hard NO. Shafts have a lot of specs that fitters love to toss around, but the only ones that really matter for 99% of golfers are total weight, balance point, and radial quality. Find another shaft with the same weight, balance, and radial (build) quality, you will most likely be in good shape. Bend profile can make very small changes in ball flight, torque is of little value. All this is to say that the Fuji or UST options will be every bit as good.

I would however also ask if graphite is even necessary? 185 yrd 6 iron doesn't need super light weight graphite unless you have an issue with joints, bones, etc and need the dampening effects. Assuming 16 year old probably does not.

Hope this helps. I don't like to bad mouth people I don't know, but I am skeptical about this fitter from what I have read here.

 

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The difference total cost for the ACCRA and the Rifle shafts is $158. The total cost with the ACCRA is only $45 more than Wilson's cheapest graphite options.

The total cost with the Rifle is $25 less than Wilson's stock KBS steel shafts.

Here is his FlightScope data. I hope the formatting is OK.

6 Iron wilson forged c300 rifle 5.0                                          
Shot
Carry (yds) Roll (yds) Total (yds) Lateral (yds) Ball (mph) Club (mph) Smash Time (s) Spin (rpm) Spin Axis (°) Club Path (°) Swing V (°) Swing H (°) Launch V (°) Launch H (°) DescentV (°) Height (ft) FTP (°) FTT (°) AOA (°) Dynamic Loft (°) Spin Loft (°) Low Point Shot Type
1 175.7 15.1 190.6 8 R 116.9 91.2 1.28 5.6 4665 15.8 R 5.6 L 59.9 4.8 L 16.3 0.6 L 38.8 75 6.4 R 0.7 R -1.4 21.1 23.3 - Draw
2 188.7 24.3 213 0.1 L 118.7 88.7 1.34 5.6 2495 13.4 R 7.5 L 64.8 6.3 L 19.8 2.2 L 39.2 84 7.3 R 0.2 L -2.5 28 31.3 - Draw
3 179.4 11.9 191.3 1.1 L 117.6 90.6 1.3 6 4837 6.6 R 4.8 L 48.3 1.5 R 19.1 1.8 L 43.5 93 4.4 R 0.5 L -7.1 30.4 37.7 - Draw
Avg 181.2 17.1 198.3 2.3 R 117.8 90.2 1.31 5.7 3999 11.9 R 6 L 57.7 3.2 L 18.4 1.5 L 40.5 84 6 R 0 R -3.7 26.5 30.8 - -
Dev 5.5 5.3 10.4 4.1 0.7 1.1 0.02 0.2 1066 3.9 1.1 6.9 3.4 1.5 0.7 2.2 7.5 1.2 0.5 2.5 4 5.9 - -
                                                 
6 Iron wilson c300 forged accra 90                                          
Shot
Carry (yds) Roll (yds) Total (yds) Lateral (yds) Ball (mph) Club (mph) Smash Time (s) Spin (rpm) Spin Axis (°) Club Path (°) Swing V (°) Swing H (°) Launch V (°) Launch H (°) DescentV (°) Height (ft) FTP (°) FTT (°) AOA (°) Dynamic Loft (°) Spin Loft (°) Low Point Shot Type
1 175.6 11.6 187.1 0.1 L 115.9 90.1 1.29 6 4977 11.1 R 6.7 L 64.9 6 L 19.9 2.5 L 44 94 5.6 R 1.1 L -1.4 27.1 29 - Draw
2 175.7 11.8 187.4 2 L 116 88.9 1.31 6 4964 13.6 R 8.4 L 57.5 8.4 L 19.8 3.7 L 43.9 93 6.2 R 2.2 L 0 25.9 26.5 - Draw
3 182.8 11.4 194.2 4.8 L 119.2 88.3 1.35 6.3 4867 10.5 R 8 L 66.2 7.3 L 20.6 3.9 L 45.7 104 5.5 R 2.5 L -1.4 28.3 30.1 - Draw
Avg 178 11.6 189.6 2.3 L 117 89.1 1.31 6.1 4936 11.7 R 7.7 L 62.9 7.3 L 20.1 3.4 L 44.5 96.7 5.8 R 1.9 L -0.9 27.1 28.5 - -
Dev 3.4 0.2 3.3 1.9 1.6 0.8 0.03 0.1 49 1.3 0.7 3.8 1 0.4 0.6 0.8 4.9 0.3 0.6 0.7 1 1.5 - -
                                                 
6 Iron wilson forged c300 kbs 105s                                          
Shot
Carry (yds) Roll (yds) Total (yds) Lateral (yds) Ball (mph) Club (mph) Smash Time (s) Spin (rpm) Spin Axis (°) Club Path (°) Swing V (°) Swing H (°) Launch V (°) Launch H (°) DescentV (°) Height (ft) FTP (°) FTT (°) AOA (°) Dynamic Loft (°) Spin Loft (°) Low Point Shot Type
1 176 11.6 187.6 5.5 L 116.1 92.9 1.25 6 4958 8.2 R 6.6 L 59.5 6 L 19.7 3.6 L 44 94 4 R 2.6 L -1.1 26.5 27.9 - Draw
2 131.7 25.8 157.5 16.4 L 104 86.8 1.2 3.9 4895 8.8 L 3.9 L 64.8 2.8 L 10.4 5.8 L 23.9 31 2.3 L 6.1 L -2.3 12.4 14.9 - Slice
3 169 10.5 179.5 28.1 L 112.8 84.5 1.33 6 5227 8.6 L 4.4 L 63.1 3.8 L 21.1 7.7 L 44.9 95 4.6 L 8.9 L -1.2 29.1 30.6 - Slice
Avg 158.9 16 174.9 16.7 L 111 88.1 1.26 5.3 5027 3.1 L 4.9 L 62.5 4.2 L 17.1 5.7 L 37.6 73.4 0.9 L 5.9 L -1.5 22.7 24.5 - -
Dev 19.5 6.9 12.7 9.2 5.1 3.5 0.06 1 144 8 1.2 2.2 1.3 4.8 1.7 9.7 29.8 3.6 2.6 0.5 7.4 6.9 - -
                                                 
6 Iron wilson c300 forged kbs tour90                                          
Shot
Carry (yds) Roll (yds) Total (yds) Lateral (yds) Ball (mph) Club (mph) Smash Time (s) Spin (rpm) Spin Axis (°) Club Path (°) Swing V (°) Swing H (°) Launch V (°) Launch H (°) DescentV (°) Height (ft) FTP (°) FTT (°) AOA (°) Dynamic Loft (°) Spin Loft (°) Low Point Shot Type
1 169.8 10.5 180.3 2.6 L 113.2 88 1.29 6.1 5227 9 R 6.3 L 61 6.2 L 21.4 2.9 L 45.3 97 4.6 R 1.7 L -0.2 28.8 29.3 - Draw
2 162 11.6 173.5 1.4 R 109.7 86.5 1.27 5.6 5295 13.8 R 7.5 L 62.4 7 L 19.9 2.4 L 42.4 83 6.8 R 0.7 L -0.8 26.8 28.4 - Draw
3 164.3 26.4 190.4 12.3 R 111.1 88.5 1.25 4.9 2995 28.1 R 9.2 L 64.6 9.4 L 17.6 0.1 L 34 62 11.9 R 2.6 R 0.4 22.6 25 - Draw
Avg 165.4 16.1 181.4 3.7 R 111.3 87.7 1.27 5.5 4506 17 R 7.7 L 62.7 7.5 L 19.6 1.8 L 40.6 80.5 7.7 R 0.1 R -0.2 26 27.5 - -
Dev 3.3 7.2 7 6.3 1.4 0.9 0.01 0.5 1069 8.1 1.2 1.5 1.4 1.6 1.2 4.8 14.6 3 1.9 0.5 2.6 1.8 - -
                                                 
6 Iron apex16 recoil s                                            
Shot
Carry (yds) Roll (yds) Total (yds) Lateral (yds) Ball (mph) Club (mph) Smash Time (s) Spin (rpm) Spin Axis (°) Club Path (°) Swing V (°) Swing H (°) Launch V (°) Launch H (°) DescentV (°) Height (ft) FTP (°) FTT (°) AOA (°) Dynamic Loft (°) Spin Loft (°) Low Point Shot Type
1 161.4 37 198.2 22.8 R 112.8 88 1.28 4.4 2487 29.8 R 5.2 L 62 4.6 L 15.2 4.2 R 28.5 49 11.9 R 6.8 R -1.1 19.8 23.9 - Hook
2 178.4 15.1 193.1 19.4 R 117.9 89.3 1.32 5.7 4717 25.5 R 8 L 67.1 7.6 L 17.6 0.9 R 40.6 81 11.7 R 3.7 R -1 23.5 27 - Draw
3 189.3 16.6 205.5 23.4 R 123.1 89.8 1.37 5.8 4407 25.3 R 7.2 L 67.3 6.2 L 16.5 1.7 R 39.9 82 11.9 R 4.6 R -2.4 22.7 27.6 - Draw
Avg 176.4 22.9 198.9 21.9 R 117.9 89 1.32 5.3 3870 26.8 R 6.8 L 65.5 6.1 L 16.5 2.3 R 36.3 71 11.8 R 5 R -1.5 22 26.2 - -
Dev 11.5 10 5.1 1.8 4.2 0.8 0.04 0.6 987 2.1 1.2 2.4 1.2 1 1.4 5.5 15.4 0.1 1.3 0.7 1.6 1.6 - -

 

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Also, the costs above include the Tour Velvet Align grips, which are not available from Wilson.  My son picked those, not the fitter.

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Here are the dispersion charts from the 3 best fits.

I think I am leaning towards getting the C300 Forged with the Rifle 5.0 shafts. While the dispersion is better with the ACCRA, the distance is better with the Rifle and the dispersion is not bad with the Rifle. If I take out the possible outlier from the Rifle, the distances are essentially equal.  I can buy a hybrid or a 56° wedge (almost both) with the savings compared to the ACCRA shafts. 

The set with the Rifle 5.0 shafts will cost $762.50 (plus tax), which is more than I have ever spent on clubs before. If he were to use the KBS Tour 90 shafts with 10 yards less distance, I might be able to find those used since they are a Wilson option. But 10 yards seems to be significant.

 

Ben C300 6I ACCRA Carry.JPG

Ben C300 6I ACCRA Total.JPG

Ben C300 6I Rifle Carry.JPG

Ben C300 6I Rifle Total.JPG

Ben C300 6I KBS Tour 90 Carry.JPG

Ben C300 6I KBS Tour 90 Total .JPG

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We did buy the C300 irons with Rifle shafts.  Son played them for the first time today and shot an 89, which beat his previous best 18 hole score by 5 strokes (although it was a par 71 vs previous best on a par 72). He played without a driver and hit the C300 3H off the tee and hit it up to 240 a couple times, which is about as far as I hit my driver. He has a natural pull swing, so he tries to play a fade, which works great when it works. Other times it is a straight pull which can result in trouble sometimes.

Next up we will look for a driver for him.  He demoed the C300 driver, the Wilson Cortex, and the Epic Flash.  Unfortunately the budget friendly C300 was his least favorite and the very budget unfriendly Epic Flash was his favorite.

The C300 had average/total of 242/277. The Cortex was 243/276.  The Epic Flash was 248/281.  The big difference was in dispersion though.  The C300 was harder to control with average lateral miss of 9 yards left (he is a lefty), but with a huge standard deviation of 19 because he sprayed it every where.  The Epic Flash was avg 3 yards right with std dev of 6, but he needed the weight set all the way on the toe to prevent pulling it. The Cortex was avg 2 yards left with std dev of 9 with no adjustments with the weights.

The C300 is under $200 while the Epic Flash is $530. We can get the Cortex demo he hit, which has only been hit by 1 other person, for $300 compared to current retail of $400. We need for him to hit more drivers, but it is hard to find lefty demos in a small town of less than 5000 people with the next closest place being a Dicks 30 miles away in a slightly larger town of maybe 30,000 which doesn't have a lot of lefty clubs available either. After that we would have to drive 1.5 hours to hit more clubs.

If we do anything soon, it might be the demo Cortex. But we might just wait a while.

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I see that Callaway Pre-Owned has an Epic Flash in the same shaft (Mitsubishi Tensei AV Blue 65 Graphite) that he demoed in average condition for $282 with shipping.

Is there any reason to be concerned with a driver in only average condition? 

What are the differences between the Mitsubishi Tensei AV Blue 65 Graphite shaft and the other stiff shafts offered such as Project X EvenFlow Green 55 Graphite, Project X EvenFlow Blue 65 Graphite, Project X HZRDUS Smoke Black 60 Graphite, Project X HZRDUS Smoke Black 70 Graphite, or Aldila Synergy 50 Graphite?

FWIW, my son had a clubhead speed of 107 mph on average with the Tensei AV Blue 65 it it matters in comparing shafts. 1.45 smash factor.

There is a 12° driver in very good condition for $320. Since my son needed all the weight on the toe to prevent pulling, would it make sense to consider a 12° driver and adjust it down, which I think will open the face a bit?  Is that correct or do I have it backward?  Or is this not worth messing with?

 

 

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14 hours ago, The Flush said:

I see that Callaway Pre-Owned has an Epic Flash in the same shaft (Mitsubishi Tensei AV Blue 65 Graphite) that he demoed in average condition for $282 with shipping.

Is there any reason to be concerned with a driver in only average condition? 

I can't speak to all of the shafts, but in regard to CPO, I have fantastic experiences with the quality of their clubs every time I have ordered from them. I would say everything I have bought from the site has arrived in better condition than I would have expected. They also have really good customer service if you are not satisfied with what you receive.

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I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Epic Flash.  After reading a lot of reviews of Callaway Pre-Owned, it seems like a decent gamble. 

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