Dropped Ball, Found and Played Original

[JOBS]

Can I get clarification on this rule please. I dropped a ball when I believed my original ball landed in the water and then before hitting my dropped ball I found original ball and proceeded to continue to play with my original ball. Upon finding original ball I played it where it lied into the green. My opponent said that it was a penalty to not play my second ball because I dropped it.., i said if I had hit the dropped ball thenI would have had to play it in, but because I found my original ball was obligated to continue with the original.

 

Clarification please. 

 

[David in FL]

You may not play a provisional for a ball thought to be lost in a penalty area.

Since you were not playing a provisional for a ball thought to be lost outside of a penalty area, once you dropped the second ball, it became the ball in play.

Rule 18.3 applies

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, David in FL said:

You may not play a provisional for a ball thought to be lost in a penalty area.

Since you were not playing a provisional for a ball thought to be lost outside of a penalty area, once you dropped the second ball, it became the ball in play.

Rule 18.3 applies

Not necessarily, David. You can sometimes pick up a dropped ball just the same way you can correct an incorrect drop procedure if you haven't yet played a stroke.

Plus, @JOBS, please clarify WHERE you dropped the ball? Where you originally played from? Or near the penalty area?

[David in FL]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not necessarily, David. You can sometimes pick up a dropped ball just the same way you can correct an incorrect drop procedure if you haven't yet played a stroke.

Plus, @JOBS, please clarify WHERE you dropped the ball? Where you originally played from? Or near the penalty area?

Good point.  I should’ve asked the follow up question...

[Wendy Dominick]

9 hours ago, JOBS said:

Can I get clarification on this rule please. I dropped a ball when I believed my original ball landed in the water and then before hitting my dropped ball I found original ball and proceeded to continue to play with my original ball. Upon finding original ball I played it where it lied into the green. My opponent said that it was a penalty to not play my second ball because I dropped it.., i said if I had hit the dropped ball thenI would have had to play it in, but because I found my original ball was obligated to continue with the original.

 

Clarification please. 

 

Before dropping the ball did you have knowledge or virtual certainty that the original ball was in the penalty area? The answer hinges on this.

[DaveP043]

The way I read this, @JOBS dropped a ball intending to take relief for a ball in a penalty area (he mentions water).  As I understand it, if he finds his original ball with 3 minutes of beginning to search, and he hasn't played the other ball, the original ball would be the one in play.  I believe that when he finds his original, the dropped ball may not be played.  If the original is in the PA, and he chooses to take relief, he would be required to drop again, but I'm not dead certain of that bit.  If he doesn't find the original, and was virtually certain it was in the PA, he would be right in playing the dropped ball, assuming it was dropped properly in the appropriate relief area.  

[JOBS]

10 minutes ago, Wendy Dominick said:

Before dropping the ball did you have knowledge or virtual certainty that the original ball was in the penalty area? The answer hinges on this.  

 

Yes, we called it in the water and dropped in the correct area as a hazard drop.  Then we found the original. 

I dropped the ball by the drop area where it presumably went in the water.  I then found my original ball never stoking the dropped ball. 

Yes, Dave that is what occurred.  I would have simply played the drop ball if we never found my original ball thereby taking the penalty stroke per usual for any water hazard. 

[David in FL]

In that case you’re fine to have picked up the dropped ball.  

In my first answer I envisioned a completely different scenario that I should’ve clarified.

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, David in FL said:

In that case you’re fine to have picked up the dropped ball.

Then I’m confused about which ball is in play. 

@JOBS had a ball in play, which he believed went into a penalty area. He dropped a ball to take relief from the penalty area, with the intent for it to be the ball in play.  He did not drop this as a provisional ball. Does this not make the dropped ball the ball in play?

Go to the definitions:

In Play:

Quote

That ball remains in play until it is holed, except that it is no longer in play:

    »    When it is lifted from the course,

    »    When it is lost (even if it is at rest on the course) or comes to rest out of bounds, or

    »    When another ball has been substituted for it, even if not allowed by a Rule.

Substitute:

Quote

A substituted ball is the player’s ball in play even if:

    •    It was replaced, dropped or placed in a wrong way or wrong place, or

    •    The player was required under the Rules to put the original ball back in play rather than to substitute another ball.

Drop:

Quote

To hold the ball and let go of it so that it falls through the air, with the intent for the ball to be in play.

If the Rules require a stroke to be made at the dropped ball for it to be the ball in play, I’m not seeing it. (And that’s possible—maybe I’m not seeing it in an Interpretation. I’ve been wrong before.)

Didn’t Rickie Fowler take relief from a penalty area earlier this year, then his dropped ball also rolled into the same penalty area, so he had to take relief again? If a stroke was required, then Fowler could have made the case that his dropped ball wasn’t in play yet. Found it: Waste Management Phoenix Open. 

Rickie Fowler had to take an extra penalty stroke when his drop rolled back in the water

---

Rickie Fowler made a triple-bogey 7 at TPC Scottsdale's 11th hole during the Phoenix Open when his ball rolled back in the water after a penalty drop

So didn’t @JOBS‘s dropped ball become the ball in play when he dropped it with intent to take relief from the penalty area?

(Haven’t had my morning coffee yet! Sorry.)

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Missouri Swede

[klineka]

2 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

 If a stroke was required, then Fowler could have made the case that his dropped ball wasn’t in play yet

Just like @JOBS did, I believe Fowler would have had to have found the ball from his 3rd shot (in the water) and hit the ball from there in order for the dropped ball to not be the ball in play. 

[JOBS]

Fowlers' situation was not the same as mine I believe? His dropped ball created another penalty upon his drop having already identified his original ball that landed in the water? My original ball was playable and would never have been a penalty shot. If I had landed in the water then I would have hit my dropped ball and played it all the way in to the hole.

I found my original ball before hitting the dropped ball and well within 3 minutes of looking.  Frankly , it was a fluke that I actually found my original ball and was glad that I had not hit the dropped ball or that would have been my ball with the penalty attached. 

 

[David in FL]

19 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Then I’m confused about which ball is in play. 

@JOBS had a ball in play, which he believed went into a penalty area. He dropped a ball to take relief from the penalty area, with the intent for it to be the ball in play.  He did not drop this as a provisional ball. Does this not make the dropped ball the ball in play?

Go to the definitions:

In Play:

Substitute:

Drop:

If the Rules require a stroke to be made at the dropped ball for it to be the ball in play, I’m not seeing it. (And that’s possible—maybe I’m not seeing it in an Interpretation. I’ve been wrong before.)

Didn’t Rickie Fowler take relief from a penalty area earlier this year, then his dropped ball also rolled into the same penalty area, so he had to take relief again? If a stroke was required, then Fowler could have made the case that his dropped ball wasn’t in play yet. Found it: Waste Management Phoenix Open. 

Rickie Fowler had to take an extra penalty stroke when his drop rolled back in the water

---

Rickie Fowler made a triple-bogey 7 at TPC Scottsdale's 11th hole during the Phoenix Open when his ball rolled back in the water after a penalty drop

So didn’t @JOBS‘s dropped ball become the ball in play when he dropped it with intent to take relief from the penalty area?

(Haven’t had my morning coffee yet! Sorry.)

 

My interpretation...

Since the original ball was found outside of the penalty area, his drop was incorrect.  Had it been lost outside of the penalty area, it would’ve required stroke and distance, so had he played the dropped ball, he would have been playing from the wrong place.  He’s  allowed to pick up that ball to keep from doing that.  As such, it hasn’t yet become the ball in play, leaving that designation with the original ball.

[DaveP043]

In response to @Missouri Swede, I believe 14.5 covers this:

Quote

a. Player May Lift Ball to Correct Mistake Before Ball Is Played

When a player has substituted another ball for the original ball when not allowed under the Rules or the player’s ball in play was replaced, dropped or placed (1) in a wrong place or came to rest in a wrong place, (2) in a wrong way or (3) by using a procedure that did not apply:

• The player may lift the ball without penalty and correct the mistake.

• But this is allowed only before the ball is played.

As @David in FL says, the dropped ball was substituted for the original when not allowed, since the original wasn't in the Penalty Area.  

[JOBS]

To be clear: The dropped ball was not a provisional ball.  It was for a water hazard shot. Before hitting the penalty ball I looked all around to be sure we couldn't find my ball and about 15ft back I saw my ball.  It was playable and was well within the 3 minute time zone.  There never would have been any need to drop a ball if we had walked up to the original ball. It was just buried in the ruff so spotting it was made more difficult,  which is why we all thought it had gone in the water.  There never would have been a need for any penalty shot. The ball was not OB nor was it in the hazard zone. It was just buried and close to the water. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by JOBS

[IowaGreg]

Just another thought...…trying to make sure I get it right...….

Would dropping a new ball constitute declaration of the 1st ball being considered lost, The 3 min rule is discarded when the new ball is dropped and therefore the 1st ball would no longer be in play even if found?

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by IowaGreg

[JOBS]

To be clear: The dropped ball was not a provisional ball.  It was for a water hazard shot. Before hitting the penalty ball I looked all around to be sure we couldn't find my ball and about 15ft back I saw my ball.  It was playable and was well within the 3 minute time zone.  There never would have been any need to drop a ball if we had walked up to the original ball. It was just buried in the ruff so spotting it was made more difficult,  which is why we all thought it had gone in the water.  There never would have been a need for any penalty shot. It was not OB, it was not  in the hard zone. It was just buried. 

[Missouri Swede]

45 minutes ago, David in FL said:

My interpretation...

Since the original ball was found outside of the penalty area, his drop was incorrect.  Had it been lost outside of the penalty area, it would’ve required stroke and distance, so had he played the dropped ball, he would have been playing from the wrong place.  He’s  allowed to pick up that ball to keep from doing that.  As such, it hasn’t yet become the ball in play, leaving that designation with the original ball.

 

43 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

In response to @Missouri Swede, I believe 14.5 covers this:

As @David in FL says, the dropped ball was substituted for the original when not allowed, since the original wasn't in the Penalty Area.  

Thanks. I think you’re right. Rule 14.5a:

Quote

a. Player May Lift Ball to Correct Mistake Before Ball Is Played

When a player has substituted another ball for the original ball when not allowed under the Rules or the player’s ball in play was replaced, dropped or placed (1) in a wrong place or came to rest in a wrong place, (2) in a wrong way or (3) by using a procedure that did not apply:

    •    The player may lift the ball without penalty and correct the mistake.

    •    But this is allowed only before the ball is played.

My next question is why 14.5 seems to contradict the definitions I cited above. Specifically, a ball is no longer in play when another has been substituted (definition of in play), and a substituted ball is the player’s ball in play even if:

    •    It was replaced, dropped or placed in a wrong way or wrong place, or

    •    The player was required under the Rules to put the original ball back in play rather than to substitute another ball.

The definitions say the substituted ball is in play, regardless of the Rules. The Rules say to ignore the definition for the substitution (maybe a little exaggerated, but I hope you see my point). There is only one ball in play at any time, even if the substitution is done incorrectly, for the wrong reason or in the wrong place. (Except if rule 14.5 applies; then the ball in play changes back?) 

The only way I see out of this is if “substitution” requires a stroke. But the definition doesn’t indicate this. 

(Second cup of coffee infused and flowing nicely, thank you.)

Edited September 9, 2019 by Missouri Swede

[JOBS]

I do not think so.  So long as it was believed to have gone in the water and then found it is my understanding that you must play the original ball. The original ball that is found may very well be in the hazard in a different location from where I originally dropped from or may be deemed unplayable also requiring a different drop zone from the ball that was first dropped. 

By playing the first ball dropped rather than the original ball under those circumstances sets the player up for an easier penalty shot also from the wrong location. That is why you go back to the original played when found. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by JOBS