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Partner in Fourball Stands Behind Partner During Putt

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28 minutes ago, RonK said:

Can I please add to the discussion. In a 4BBB

If Player A has 5 ft birdie putt (so pretty certain to make par). and Player B has a 6 ft putt for par 9o degrees from Player As ball. 

Can Player B putt his ball to just behind Player As mark and not  at the hole so that his next putt will show Player A the line for his birdie attempt.

thanks.

Well I think it violates the standard of ethics such that rule 5.6a ‘ unreasonable delay of play’ could be called:  

https://t59dl.app.link/en/e584e56416bb272edae34e3f3dfd7eb4c478c63734b4fbd04af4b663fbb21bf6

 

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9 hours ago, RonK said:

Can I please add to the discussion. In a 4BBB

If Player A has 5 ft birdie putt (so pretty certain to make par). and Player B has a 6 ft putt for par 9o degrees from Player As ball. 

Can Player B putt his ball to just behind Player As mark and not  at the hole so that his next putt will show Player A the line for his birdie attempt.

thanks.

Such action gets the general penalty for serious misconduct, Rule 1.2.  See Interpretation 1.2a/1.

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9 hours ago, RonK said:

Can I please add to the discussion. In a 4BBB

If Player A has 5 ft birdie putt (so pretty certain to make par). and Player B has a 6 ft putt for par 9o degrees from Player As ball. 

Can Player B putt his ball to just behind Player As mark and not  at the hole so that his next putt will show Player A the line for his birdie attempt.

thanks.

I can't find a rule against that, but I don't really care.  As their opponent, I'd simply concede B's next putt (for bogey), pick up his ball, and hand it to him.  

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Against the rules and you can concede anyway. M

I thought that too, but can't find the specific rule.  Can you point me to it?

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3 hours ago, fredf said:

Such action gets the general penalty for serious misconduct, Rule 1.2.  See Interpretation 1.2a/1.

 

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I thought that too, but can't find the specific rule.  Can you point me to it?


@fredf had it. (I deleted the first six examples in the quote to shorten it.)

Quote

1.2a/1 - Meaning of Serious Misconduct

The phrase “serious misconduct” in Rule 1.2a is intended to cover player misconduct that is so far removed from the expected norm in golf that the most severe sanction of removing a player from the competition is justified. This includes dishonesty, deliberately interfering with another player’s rights, or endangering the safety of others.

The Committee must determine if the misconduct is serious considering all the circumstances. Even if the Committee determines that the misconduct is serious, it may take the view that it is more appropriate to warn the player that a repeat of the misconduct or similar misconduct will result in disqualification, instead of disqualifying him or her in the first instance.

Examples of actions by a player that are likely to be considered serious misconduct include:
Deliberately playing away from the hole and then towards the hole to assist the player’s partner (such as helping the player’s partner learn the break on the putting green).

 

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4 hours ago, fredf said:

Such action gets the general penalty for serious misconduct, Rule 1.2.  See Interpretation 1.2a/1.

How do you arrive at the general penalty for a breach of R1.2?

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52 minutes ago, Asheville said:

How do you arrive at the general penalty for a breach of R1.2?

Rule 1.2 does seem to indicate that DQ is the only available penalty for "serious misconduct" unless a lesser penalty is specifically incorporated into a Code of Conduct for the competition.  Interpretation 1.2a/1 does say that the Committee may choose to warn the player, but doesn't suggest that it can impose a penalty other than DQ.

Again, this shouldn't be an issue as long as the opponents can concede the next putt after B hits his putt to the position where it could help A.  But in a 4-ball stroke play situation, there ARE no concessions, so that kind of action should be punished pretty severely.

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17 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Again, this shouldn't be an issue as long as the opponents can concede the next putt after B hits his putt to the position where it could help A.

The concession would take place after the infraction.

So there may no longer be an active player to concede the putt to.

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14 minutes ago, iacas said:

The concession would take place after the infraction.

So there may no longer be an active player to concede the putt to.

That certainly makes sense, but as I understand the Rule 1.2, the DQ penalty would to be assessed by the Committee for the serious misconduct.  The Committee also has the authority to choose to warn the player, rather than apply the DQ penalty.  In real time,  it seems unlikely that a decision to DQ the player would be made while the hole is still being played.  In real time, and in match play, the smart thing to do is to concede the putt before it can be played.

Edited by DaveP043

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15 hours ago, RonK said:

Can I please add to the discussion. In a 4BBB

If Player A has 5 ft birdie putt (so pretty certain to make par). and Player B has a 6 ft putt for par 9o degrees from Player As ball. 

Can Player B putt his ball to just behind Player As mark and not  at the hole so that his next putt will show Player A the line for his birdie attempt.

thanks.

I vaguely seem to remember an old decision prohibiting such an action but cannot find it. Am I dreaming?

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15 hours ago, RonK said:

Can I please add to the discussion. In a 4BBB

If Player A has 5 ft birdie putt (so pretty certain to make par). and Player B has a 6 ft putt for par 9o degrees from Player As ball. 

Can Player B putt his ball to just behind Player As mark and not  at the hole so that his next putt will show Player A the line for his birdie attempt.

thanks.

The rule in question to prohibit this would be Rule 23.5, which concerns a player's actions affection a partner's play. Specifically in section a it states,

Quote

A player and the player’s caddie may help the partner in any way that the partner’s caddie is allowed to help (such as to give and be asked for advice and take the other actions allowed under Rule 10), but must not give any help that the partner’s caddie is not allowed to give under the Rules.

It would be pretty easy to argue that rule 10.2.b.2 prohibits this when it states:

Quote

The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.

The golf ball is an object on the ground and specifically putting behind your partner would be using that object on the ground the show the line of play. 

It could also be considered to be a breech of rule 1.2 (a or b) depending on any code of conduct standards set by the committee and adopted as a local rule.

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13 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

The rule in question to prohibit this would be Rule 23.5, which concerns a player's actions affection a partner's play. Specifically in section a it states,

It would be pretty easy to argue that rule 10.2.b.2 prohibits this when it states:

The golf ball is an object on the ground and specifically putting behind your partner would be using that object on the ground the show the line of play. 

It could also be considered to be a breech of rule 1.2 (a or b) depending on any code of conduct standards set by the committee and adopted as a local rule.

I think the action proposed here was to putt to a point just behind his partner's ball and then putt again showing the line to his partner. The ball itself wasn't intended to indicate a line.

The decision (??) I thought I remembered was specifically about such an action (ie effectively putting away from the hole).

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9 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

I think the action proposed here was to putt to a point just behind his partner's ball and then putt again showing the line to his partner. The ball itself wasn't intended to indicate a line.

The decision (??) I thought I remembered was specifically about such an action (ie effectively putting away from the hole).

The ball itself would serve to indicate a line though, which is prohibited for physical objects on the green even if they are removed before the stroke is made. 

I was mainly just providing an argument outside of the more obvious rule 1.2 answer if the committee for some reason didn't believe that to be an egregious breech of conduct worthy of a DQ, they could still apply a lesser penalty without having had to specifically mention that action in their own code of conduct with its own penalty.

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2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

The ball itself would serve to indicate a line though, which is prohibited for physical objects on the green even if they are removed before the stroke is made. 

 

How could it provide a line if it was not exactly on an extension of the line from the hole thru the partner's ball or on the line of borrow?

Edited by Rulesman

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2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

The ball itself would serve to indicate a line though, which is prohibited for physical objects on the green even if they are removed before the stroke is made. 

The ball would only be useful to show the line if it was moving. That was the intention of player B. Player B ball serves no assistance if it’s just sitting there behind player A ball.

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5 hours ago, Asheville said:

How do you arrive at the general penalty for a breach of R1.2?

Quite right, I erred in saying it was general penalty. The only penalty option for the Committee outside any relevant Code of Conduct is DQ. But the interpretation is VERY clear, this is a Serious Misconduct, which answers the question put. Any Committee that fails to act on a Serious Misconduct, IMO, is not doing the game any favours.  It actually was a general penalty last year (old decision 30-3f/6).

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

I vaguely seem to remember an old decision prohibiting such an action but cannot find it. Am I dreaming?

30.3f/6 (I haven't worked out multiquote).

3 minutes ago, fredf said:

Quite right, I erred in saying it was general penalty. The only penalty option for the Committee outside any relevant Code of Conduct is DQ. But the interpretation is VERY clear, this is a Serious Misconduct, which answers the question put. Any Committee that fails to act on a Serious Misconduct, IMO, is not doing the game any favours.  It actually was a general penalty last year (old decision 30-3f/6).

30.3f/6 (I haven't worked out multiquote).

 

4 minutes ago, fredf said:

Quite right, I erred in saying it was general penalty. The only penalty option for the Committee outside any relevant Code of Conduct is DQ. But the interpretation is VERY clear, this is a Serious Misconduct, which answers the question put. Any Committee that fails to act on a Serious Misconduct, IMO, is not doing the game any favours.  It actually was a general penalty last year (old decision 30-3f/6).

30.3f/6 (I haven't worked out multiquote).

And I can find no intuitive way to edit my post - the Decision reference should be 33-3f/6 not 30-3f/6.

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I have gone through the replies and the main claim is 'Serious misconduct'. I get that but it seems like a grey area. open to interpretation. 

I can't find any section of the rules that describe the scenario that i provided and the rules are very specific in terms of objects, balls hit, touched, where participants stand, act etc.

There are other reasons the said example could count as legitimate play. Perhaps Player B is putting away from the hole because he wants an easier uphill putt to finish the hole. Also if  Player B's ball is directly opposite Player A's ball and putts it pass the hole and just pass his partners mark it is an over hit and the putt coming back is going to show the line for the next putt. Misconduct or inherent part of the game. Have we lost the freedom to decide on the direction of the next stroke.

NB. The 4BBB I am referring to would be part of a Team Stableford competion. So there is no conceding putts involved.

 

Ahhh I have found some clarity.

Point 7. 

1.2a/1 - Meaning of Serious Misconduct

The phrase “serious misconduct” in Rule 1.2a is intended to cover player misconduct that is so far removed from the expected norm in golf that the most severe sanction of removing a player from the competition is justified. This includes dishonesty, deliberately interfering with another player’s rights, or endangering the safety of others.

The Committee must determine if the misconduct is serious considering all the circumstances. Even if the Committee determines that the misconduct is serious, it may take the view that it is more appropriate to warn the player that a repeat of the misconduct or similar misconduct will result in disqualification, instead of disqualifying him or her in the first instance.

Examples of actions by a player that are likely to be considered serious misconduct include:

  • Deliberately causing serious damage to a putting green.

  • Disagreeing with the course setup and taking it on himself or herself to move tee-markers or boundary stakes.

  • Throwing a club towards another player or spectator.

  • Deliberately distracting other players while they are making strokes.

  • Removing loose impediments or movable obstructions to disadvantage another player after that other player has asked him or her to leave them in place.

  • Repeatedly refusing to lift a ball at rest when it interferes with another player in stroke play.

  • Deliberately playing away from the hole and then towards the hole to assist the player’s partner (such as helping the player’s partner learn the break on the putting green).

  • Deliberately not playing in accordance with the Rules and potentially gaining a significant advantage by doing so, despite incurring a penalty for a breach of the relevant Rule.

  • Repeatedly using vulgar or offensive language.

  • Using a handicap that has been established for the purpose of providing an unfair advantage or using the round being played to establish such a handicap.

Examples of actions by a player that, although involving misconduct, are unlikely to be considered serious misconduct include:

  • Slamming a club to the ground, damaging the club and causing minor damage to the turf.

  • Throwing a club towards a golf bag that unintentionally hits another person.

  • Carelessly distracting another player making a stroke.

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