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Two Players Penalized at LPGA Q-Series for Not Knowing Rule


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2 hours ago, Big C said:

If you ever wonder why tour players almost never call out other pros for rules infractions (despite a fairly significant number who have witnessed something, according to the recent anonymous survey), why backstopping persists, etc. - the blowback that Kim is getting for this is the primary reason why.

I'm not tracking her - is the blowback because she notified of the penalty?  That's not fair - she should speak up and has a duty to, not just for the two involved, but for the whole field.

if the blow back is because she waited?  I get that. 

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:
2 hours ago, David in FL said:

The breach happened on 17.  

They started on 10.

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20 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

if the blow back is because she waited?  I get that. 

I think that is unfair. It's easy to say you would do the right thing from the comfort of your own home with no consequences or ramifications. 

When you are the person witnessing a breach, knowing that speaking up will have major ramifications for your fellow competitors, the easiest thing to do by far is to stay silent - which is exactly what most people would do. 

Doing the right thing often isn't instinctual. Sometimes it takes a little time to center yourself, give thought to the situation and make the correct decision, even when uncomfortable. Kudos to Kim for doing just that. 

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I don’t think Kim should be getting any blowback. She called a penalty she witnessed. I think the only blowback should come to the player doing the whole, ‘I’m sorry but..’ routine. She screwed up, was called out, done. ‘ I’ve seen it happen 1000’s of timeS’ is a lousy argument and shouldn’t have been said. The best response would’ve been, ‘ yeah I should’ve known better. Kim was just doing what she’s supposed to do and protect the field. It’s all on me. I goofed.’ 

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3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I don’t think Kim should be getting any blowback. She called a penalty she witnessed.

I disagree. What if a person wants to know if they have a penalty? What if they think they are 1 up going into 18 and plays conservative? I think the golfer should have all the information at hand. Withholding the knowledge of a penalty I think does more harm than good. 

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57 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

and has a duty to

Does she?  Is it in the rules that a person must bring up the rules infraction immediately?  I'm asking because I do not know.  "Should" and "duty" are two different things.

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I disagree. What if a person wants to know if they have a penalty? What if they think they are 1 up going into 18 and plays conservative? I think the golfer should have all the information at hand. Withholding the knowledge of a penalty I think does more harm than good. 

See my question.  

Kim only deserves blowback if she violated a rule.  Otherwise, I don't care.  

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6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I disagree. What if a person wants to know if they have a penalty? What if they think they are 1 up going into 18 and plays conservative? I think the golfer should have all the information at hand. Withholding the knowledge of a penalty I think does more harm than good. 

It sounds like you are referring to a match play - which has different rules regarding the timeliness of a claim for the exact reason you describe.

In a perfect world, I agree it would have been better if Kim had said something immediately. But I think she deserves zero blowback for reporting it when she did. 90% of golfers would have said nothing and let the infraction go un-reported. By reporting the incident at all, she is doing better than most tour golfers (and most of us on this message board) would have done. 

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From what I've read, there have been two reasons for blowback.   The first is because she waited, whether it was to get word from the officials, or to avoid disrupting the other women's play.  The other reason is for the Twitter post essentially saying "PLEASE LEARN THE RULES".  

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I disagree. What if a person wants to know if they have a penalty? What if they think they are 1 up going into 18 and plays conservative? I think the golfer should have all the information at hand. Withholding the knowledge of a penalty I think does more harm than good. 

The way I read this, Kim wasn't certain of the rule, so she asked an official immediately, and it took a while for the response to come back.  Don't I remember a bit of consternation when DJ was eventually penalized for a ball moving on a green at Oakmont, but the final determination wasn't made immediately.  The USGA officials were criticized for taking too long to make a decision, leaving DJ in "limbo" for a number of holes.  If the two players had been told immediately that they "might have breached the rule" but that the officials were double-checking to be sure, would that have been better?  I'm not sure myself, but I can see that side of it.  

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20.1 Resolving Rules Issues During Round

a. Players Must Avoid Unreasonable Delay

Players must not unreasonably delay play when seeking help with the Rules during a round:

c. Rules Issues in Stroke Play

(1) No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. If a referee or the Committee is not available in a reasonable time to help with a Rules issue:

  • The players are encouraged to help each other in applying the Rules, but they have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement they may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.

  • A player should raise any Rules issues with the Committee before returning his or her scorecard.

(2) Players Should Protect Other Players in the Competition. To protect the interests of all other players:

  • If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee.

  • This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns his or her scorecard unless it is not possible to do so.

If the player fails to do so, the Committee may disqualify the player under Rule 1.2a if it decides that this was serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game.

 

Here, Kim likely did the right thing.  She contacted a rules official and waited on them so as not to unreasonably delay play.  Further, while she believed another player might have breached the rules, she brought it up no later than before the signing of the scorecard.  Besides, 20.1(c)(2) has "should" provisions, not "shall" or "must" provisions, so telling the other player is something she "should" do, not something she "must" do.

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11 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Does she?  Is it in the rules that a person must bring up the rules infraction immediately?  I'm asking because I do not know.  "Should" and "duty" are two different things.

 

Yes.  She has a duty to protect the rest of the field.

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Basically the golfers blaming Kim are trying to duck the blame they deserve.  She did the right thing by pointing out the violation and protecting the field.  Anybody criticising her is not only wrong, but actually hurting the game of golf.  They are protecting violators and hurting the field.

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1 minute ago, David in FL said:

Yes.  She has a duty to protect the rest of the field.

The rule doesn't say that.  "Should" and "duty" mean different things; should implies a moral obligation, whereas duty implies a legal or contractual obligation.  See the rule above. 

Nonetheless, I said Kim was correct in what she did.

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1 minute ago, pganapathy said:

Basically the golfers blaming Kim are trying to duck the blame they deserve.  She did the right thing by pointing out the violation and protecting the field.  Anybody criticising her is not only wrong, but actually hurting the game of golf.  They are protecting violators and hurting the field.

I haven't heard either of the penalized players criticizing Kim for enforcing the rule.  The only complaint I saw was over Kim's Twitter post advising players to learn the rules.  From what I read, her complaint was that the Tweet brought the penalties into the public eye, when otherwise they'd have gone unnoticed by most of the world.

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3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I haven't heard either of the penalized players criticizing Kim for enforcing the rule.  The only complaint I saw was over Kim's Twitter post advising players to learn the rules.  From what I read, her complaint was that the Tweet brought the penalties into the public eye, when otherwise they'd have gone unnoticed by most of the world.

My bad.  Didn't realise it was others complaining.  But the basic premise of my post doesn't change.  Anybody criticising her is helping to protect violators.  You need to learn the rules if you play golf, especially professional golf.  Protecting the field is very important and asking others to learn the rules is perfectly logical.  As a matter of fact, she is doing a job that the PGA/LPGA should be doing.  They should ensure that golfers playing on the tour, or attempting to play on the tour, know the rules of golf.  Admittedly this is spoon-feeding them, but nobody has a right to complain if someone is penalised for a rules violation that is clearly mentioned in black and white in the rulebook

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8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

she asked an official immediately, and it took a while for the response to come back.

So a rules official 'took a while' to answer the question on asking a caddie what club is someone hitting.......

If a rules official can't answer that specific item immediately....I'm not surprised that players won't disposition their own observations and penalties on their own with confidence......

That the official had to send it in, and then it took forever to get an answer, stands out even more than anything to me.....

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Just now, rehmwa said:

So a rules official 'took a while' to answer the question on asking a caddie what club is someone hitting.......

If a rules official can't answer that specific item immediately....I'm not surprised that players won't disposition their own observations and penalties on their own with confidence......

That the official had to send it in, and then it took forever to get an answer, stands out even more than anything to me.....

Read the rule.  Players have no right to decide a rules violation on their own with respect to matter like this.  See 20.1(c)(1).

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45 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Read the rule.  Players have no right to decide a rules violation on their own with respect to matter like this.  See 20.1(c)(1).

thanks, found it: 

1 - that rule has nothing to do with my complaint that the rules official didn't know the rule and had to send it in for comment.  Rules officials should know the rule.  He says "yes, that's a violation", and he reminds the players affected about it.  then it's in their court if it becomes an "issue" or not.  They argue?  then he pulls in the committee.  But that scenario can play out between players even without the official.

2 - Neither the player nor the official TOLD THE OFFENDERs (immediately - revised for those that can't follow).  If told, they might have recalled the rule and just taken the penalty.  That's not an 'agreement' that's a player taking a penalty as is her responsibility.  She freaking waited 10 holes, so did the official.

It's not rocket science - give the offender the opportunity to take the penalty ("Hey, I don't think you can ask that.  It's a penalty").  If they acknowledge it and take the strokes, end of discussion - it's not an 'issue', it's not a problem.  If they disagree or ignore - then you report it. 

IF they'd spoken up then here's some "issues" that would require elevation:

1 - ignoring it completely

2 - arguing that it's not a penalty

3 - arguing it's only 1 stroke vs two

4 - admitting they don't know, and wanting to be sure

If they take the information (which is encouraged under the rules), recall the rule, and take the appropriate penalty, it's not an issue.  It's just honest scorekeeping.

 

- if you hit a ball out of bounds in front of me, I don't call a rules official unless you forget to take your strokes.  you just take them and keep playing.  If I note the penalty for hitting out of bounds, that's not an agreement.

 

Kim did the right thing but in a scared way IMO.  She knew the rule (saying she was uncertain is bull, it's not a complex rule.  If people want to bury Dye for not knowing it, how can they give a pass for Kim "kinda" knowing the rule?) and still couldn't speak up in a timely manner for any number of reasons - I suspect she wanted to avoid any conflict.  ok, fine.  She did the next best thing and brought it up immediately to an official - let him play 'bad cop'.  But The official doesn't get any slack.  If Kim was too scared to informed the others, the official has zero reason to not speak up right then and there and let them have the opportunity to do the correct thing immediately.

 

 

c. Rules Issues in Stroke Play

No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. If a referee or the Committee is not available in a reasonable time to help with a Rules issue you have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement you may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.

You should raise any Rules issues with the Committee before returning your scorecard.

You Should Protect Other Players in the Competition. If you know or believe that another player has breached the Rules and does not recognize or is ignoring this, you should tell that player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. You should do this promptly, and certainly before the player returns his or her scorecard. Your failure to do so could be serious misconduct resulting in disqualification.

Edited by rehmwa

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1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I disagree. What if a person wants to know if they have a penalty? What if they think they are 1 up going into 18 and plays conservative? I think the golfer should have all the information at hand. Withholding the knowledge of a penalty I think does more harm than good. 

There’s nothing to disagree about. Kim followed the rule as to her reporting. Are you disagreeing with the rule?

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18 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

thanks, found it: 

1 - your reply is a digression, as my complaint was the rules official didn't know the rule and had to send it in for comment.  Rules officials should know the rule.  He says "yes, that's a violation", and he reminds the players affected about it.  then it's in their court if it becomes an "issue" or not.  They argue?  then he pulls in the committee.  But that scenario can play out between players even without the official.

2 - Neither the player nor the official TOLD THE OFFENDERs.  If told, they might have recalled the rule and just taken the penalty.  That's not an 'agreement' that's a player taking a penalty as is her responsibility.

It's not rocket science - give the offender the opportunity to take the penalty ("Hey, I don't think you can ask that.  It's a penalty").  If they acknowledge it and take the strokes, end of discussion - it's not an 'issue', it's not a problem.  If they disagree or ignore - then you report it. 

IF they'd spoken up then here's some "issues" that would require elevation:

1 - ignoring it completely

2 - arguing that it's not a penalty

3 - arguing it's only 1 stroke vs two

4 - admitting they don't know, and wanting to be sure

If they take the information (which is encouraged under the rules), recall the rule, and take the appropriate penalty, it's not an issue.  It's just honest scorekeeping.

 

- if you hit a ball out of bounds in front of me, I don't call a rules official unless you forget to take your strokes.  you just take them and keep playing.  If I note the penalty for hitting out of bounds, that's not an agreement.

 

 

 

c. Rules Issues in Stroke Play

No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. If a referee or the Committee is not available in a reasonable time to help with a Rules issue you have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement you may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.

You should raise any Rules issues with the Committee before returning your scorecard.

You Should Protect Other Players in the Competition. If you know or believe that another player has breached the Rules and does not recognize or is ignoring this, you should tell that player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. You should do this promptly, and certainly before the player returns his or her scorecard. Your failure to do so could be serious misconduct resulting in disqualification.

Response to your numbered list:

1) I agree.

2) reread the facts.  Kim did tell the other players of the possible rules infraction.  "Kim waited until the end of the round (10 holes later) to tell the pair that they had violated Rule 10-2."  You are incorrect.

Now, as to the rule and your redlighted text: She told the player and it wasn't even a duty, but something she "should" do.  Promptly is not defined; read the rule--it says certainly before the player returns their card.  She did that.

Edited by ncates00
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Note: This thread is 1583 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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