Two Players Penalized at LPGA Q-Series for Not Knowing Rule

[RemyM]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

The Rules on "advice" are fairly clear. Flashing signals to an on-course reporter, particularly when done surreptitiously, does not come anywhere close to the "advice" definition.

It was far from surreptitiously.  
He was standing just off to the side of his player and he made the signal with a halfway extended arm at chest level.  Very obvious for all to see.

[Asheville]

There must be intent to influence the player. Look at the RoG Definition of Advice.

Advice - Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence a player in:

Choosing a club,

Making a stroke, or

Deciding how to play during a hole or round.

But advice does not include public information, such as:

The location of things on the course such as the hole, the putting green, the fairway, penalty areas, bunkers, or another player’s ball,

The distance from one point to another, or

The Rules.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=2

[Vinsk]

11 minutes ago, RemyM said:

It was far from surreptitiously.  
He was standing just off to the side of his player and he made the signal with a halfway extended arm at chest level.  Very obvious for all to see.

I don’t think how he did it is relevant. It’s the situation that it was done that justifies it.

[Missouri Swede]

9 minutes ago, RemyM said:

It was far from surreptitiously.  
He was standing just off to the side of his player and he made the signal with a halfway extended arm at chest level.  Very obvious for all to see.

If I follow your line of thinking, then there should also be a rule that discussions between player and caddie are out of hearing range of all other players and caddies. 

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, RemyM said:

It was far from surreptitiously.  
He was standing just off to the side of his player and he made the signal with a halfway extended arm at chest level.  Very obvious for all to see.

Was it "advice"? If not, then your line of thought ends there.

[RemyM]

The Q School situation was clearly a violation, I never disputed that.   I know the whole thing about intent but we couldn't see what was going on off camera and I think the practice needs to stop.  Someone seeing what I saw on Sunday gives credence to the final comment in the original story I posted. 

Kendall Dye and Dewi Weber were still in shock about the whole thing after Q-Series ended.

As Dye tells it, Christina Kim hit first on the par 3. Then Weber stepped up to the tee. As Weber prepared to hit, Dye motioned toward Weber’s caddie to ask if it was an 8-iron. Jacqueline Schram signaled back to confirm that it was, indeed, an 8-iron.

Even though Weber didn’t have a clue that any of this had transpired, she was given a two-stroke penalty along with Dye because of her caddie’s mistake.

“I have just seen so many caddies and people do it,” said Schram. “It was just a subtle gesture that I didn’t think twice about.”

[iacas]

I get what you’re saying but flashing the on-course reporter in the fairway of a par four is not in the same league as flashing another player or caddie on a par three tee.

And it makes for better, more informed TV.

[Rulesman]

Have I got this right?

Kim's caddie was Dye. Weber's caddie was Schram

Kim plays first. Before Weber plays, Dye 'asks' Schram if Weber is taking an 8-iron 

Schram indicates that she is.

 

Doesn't the old decision 8-1/6 cover this? If not, why not?

 

[RemyM]

5 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Have I got this right?

Kim's caddie was Dye. Weber's caddie was Schram

Kim plays first. Before Weber plays, Dye 'asks' Schram if Weber is taking an 8-iron 

Schram indicates that she is.

 

Doesn't the old decision 8-1/6 cover this? If not, why not?

 

Dye, Weber and Christina Kim were the players at Q School, Schram was Webber's caddie, but we've been through all that already.

My post yesterday was about S.Y. Kim's caddie giving the same signal visible to everyone at the CME Group Tour Championship. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

Have I got this right?

No. Neither Christina nor her caddie were involved in the giving or receiving of advice.

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

Doesn't the old decision 8-1/6 cover this? If not, why not?

Also, it wasn't on a previous hole. C'mon Doug. Did you read the first few posts?

[Asheville]

3 hours ago, RemyM said:

Dye, Weber and Christina Kim were the players at Q School, Schram was Webber's caddie, but we've been through all that already.

My post yesterday was about S.Y. Kim's caddie giving the same signal visible to everyone at the CME Group Tour Championship. 

To whom was the caddie giving the signal?

The answer matters . . . if it was a signal to a TV spotter, there's unlikely to be a breach. If the sign was directed to another player or their caddie, there's likely a breach. Intent matters.

How do we know? The Definition of Advice.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=2

 

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

To whom was the caddie giving the signal?

The answer matters . . . if it was a signal to a TV spotter, there's unlikely to be a breach. If the sign was directed to another player or their caddie, there's likely a breach. Intent matters.

Just read the first few posts.

It was a player or caddie. Thus, they were penalized. Three weeks ago or whatever.

The thing from Sunday was a different thing altogether.

[Rulesman]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

No. Neither Christina nor her caddie were involved in the giving or receiving of advice.

I have no idea who these people are and what their relationship on the course was. I didn't notice a post that spelled it out. Am i right in thinking there were actually 3 players.

I wasn't referring to the Sunday thing.

 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

I have no idea who these people are and what their relationship on the course was. I didn't notice a post that spelled it out. Am i right in thinking there were actually 3 players.

From the first post:

Two players hit with penalties LPGA Q-Series for violating advice rule

---

PINEHURST, N.C. – There’s never a good time for a two-stroke penalty. But the second week of Q-Series, where a whole year’s worth of status is on the line, ranks up there among the worst times to g…

Kendall Dye and Dewi Weber (both of these are players) were still in shock about the whole thing after Q-Series ended.

The incident took place on the 17th hole during Round 6 at Pinehurst No. 9.

As Dye tells it, Christina Kim (Player A) hit first on the par 3. Then Weber (Player B), runner-up at the 2016 NCAA Championship while a freshman at Miami, stepped up to the tee. As Weber (Player B) prepared to hit, Dye (Player C) motioned toward Weber’s caddie to ask if it was an 8-iron. Jacqueline Schram (Player B's caddie) signaled back to confirm that it was, indeed, an 8-iron.

So, C asked B's caddie, and B's caddie responded.

The rules officials got it right (the one on scene was a bit slow to respond, unsure, as he was a volunteer or something), and the proper penalty was assessed.

[RemyM]

2 hours ago, Asheville said:

To whom was the caddie giving the signal?

The answer matters . . . if it was a signal to a TV spotter, there's unlikely to be a breach. If the sign was directed to another player or their caddie, there's likely a breach. Intent matters.

How do we know? The Definition of Advice.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=2

 

 

Screen shot from Sunday.  Assumed it was for Jerry Foltz who was the walking on-course reporter, but Neely Korda and her caddie were standing there too.  You can see the two other balls in the shot.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, RemyM said:

Screen shot from Sunday.  Assumed it was for Jerry Foltz who was the walking on-course reporter, but Neely Korda and her caddie were standing there too.  You can see the two other balls in the shot.

Again, doesn't meet the definition of advice, and the players don't have the same yardage as they would on a par three, etc.

[Asheville]

20 minutes ago, RemyM said:

Screen shot from Sunday.  Assumed it was for Jerry Foltz who was the walking on-course reporter, but Neely Korda and her caddie were standing there too.  You can see the two other balls in the shot.

Please, please read the Definition of Advice. I've provided it twice; here's your third chance: 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=2

Once you comprehend the Definition, you'll abandon this wild goose chase.

[RemyM]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Again, doesn't meet the definition of advice, and the players don't have the same yardage as they would on a par three, etc.

There was another time on screen that Lexi Thompson's caddie gave the signal on a par 3 and it was right in front of a fellow competitor.  I'm done with screen shots though.  To me this is the same as backstopping.

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

Please, please read the Definition of Advice. I've provided it twice; here's your third chance: 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=2

Once you comprehend the Definition, you'll abandon this wild goose chase.

I know the rules, just making a point, like the player at Q School said, she sees it happening all the time.