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RemyM

Two Players Penalized at LPGA Q-Series for Not Knowing Rule

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The incident took place on the 17th hole during Round 6 at Pinehurst No. 9.

As Dye tells it, Christina Kim hit first on the par 3. Then Weber, runner-up at the 2016 NCAA Championship while a freshman at Miami, stepped up to the tee. As Weber prepared to hit, Dye motioned toward Weber’s caddie to ask if it was an 8-iron. Jacqueline Schram signaled back to confirm that it was, indeed, an 8-iron.

Kim waited until the end of the round (10 holes later) to tell the pair that they had violated Rule 10-2. While players can, and do, look into other players’ bags to see what club is missing, they cannot ask a fellow player or caddie for information.

 

The players said LPGA officials took more than hour to deliver their decision.

Dye said she had no idea that signaling for a club was against the rules.

“I’m gutted for the other player who was over her shot, ball in air and had no idea what was going on,” said Dye. “By no means was I trying to cheat.”

Schram said she was also unaware of the rule.

“I have just seen so many caddies and people do it,” said Schram. “It was just a subtle gesture that I didn’t think twice about.”

Full story at link.

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PINEHURST, N.C. – There’s never a good time for a two-stroke penalty. But the second week of Q-Series, where a whole year’s worth of status is on the line, ranks up there among the worst times to g…

 

 

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1 hour ago, RemyM said:

Dye said she had no idea that signaling for a club was against the rules.

Schram said she was also unaware of the rule.

“I have just seen so many caddies and people do it,” said Schram. “It was just a subtle gesture that I didn’t think twice about.”

 

Is it really believable that these 2 players (and caddie) didn't know this was illegal? I always thought this was one of the most well-known rules of golf. I know it was LPGA Q-School but come on. 

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As one poster said in the Twitter feed: ‘ I’m sorry but....’ never comes off well. I don’t know what the ‘ inside tone’ is in these tournaments but when you get called out for a penalty in a game when you’re expected to call yourself out, saying anything negative about the person who called you out probably won’t go over well.  
 

Now had Kim waited for them to sign their cards then called it that may have been a poor move. And maybe that’s not correct either? If you know a penalty occurred but wait til after the round to call it..that seems inappropriate to me. 

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I feel for Weber.  I suspect that she may be looking for a new caddie moving forward.

Sorry, but I flat out don’t believe that Dye didn’t know that asking advice was a breach.  

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13 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

As one poster said in the Twitter feed: ‘ I’m sorry but....’ never comes off well. I don’t know what the ‘ inside tone’ is in these tournaments but when you get called out for a penalty in a game when you’re expected to call yourself out, saying anything negative about the person who called you out probably won’t go over well.  
 

Now had Kim waited for them to sign their cards then called it that may have been a poor move. And maybe that’s not correct either? If you know a penalty occurred but wait til after the round to call it..that seems inappropriate to me. 

I can see two sides to this.  On one hand, by waiting Kim left the possibility that they would make the same mistake again.  Apparently they didn't.  But by bringing it up during the round, she could have impacted their attitude and play for the remainder of the day.  There's no way to handle it that is free of potential problems.

Reading some of the tweets, Kim apparently asked an official about the situation after play on that same hole, and the official needed to double-check whether the two players had broken a rule.  Kim says she waited rather than bring something up she wasn't 100% certain of.

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Whether Kim called them out immediately or wait like she did will have people questioning her motives. Rules are rules - not knowing a rule is not an excuse to break it. Why put the pressure on the one who is enforcing the rules of the game and make her look like a bad person? 

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I always find this a stupid situation, especially at the amateur level.  If I tell you I hit a 7i, what does that tell you?  I may be one or two clubs longer or shorter than you, and my irons are 5 years old so if yours are newer or much older there could be a club difference in our sets.  That says nothing about whether I tried to hit a club the full distance.  I know that some of this doesn't apply to the pros, but a lot of it does so why a caddie would ask that even not knowing the rules is a mystery to me.

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16 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I wasn't sure, but I was curious if there is a rule about promptly notifying your opponent of a breach in the rules. 

There is but it applies to matchplay.

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Horribly written article - unless you know the players, you have to draw a freaking diagram to understand the paragraph:

Simplified.  Player 3 asked Player 2's caddie what club she was hitting.  The caddie answered.  Player 1 didn't turn them in until the end of the round.  Everyone involved thought it was innocent ignorance.  Player 2's caddie ID'd and pulled the wrong club, both players involved messed up the hole.  Everybody feels bad.  Neither woman made it to the LPGA this time.

 

1 - Player 3 - Know the rules

2 - Player 2's caddie - pull the right club.....and know the rules

3 - Player 1, who the hell are you to decide to wait to notify a penalty??!!

4 - How does it take an hour for a 'committee' to deliver the confirm on the penalty?  This is pretty simple and if the players penalize themselves correctly, the 'committe' isn't even a factor.  For that matter - how does a committee "give" a penalty?  Players take their own penalties.  At most, the committed would inform the player and then the player scores themselves accordingly.

 

Simple - Player 3 and Player 2's caddie screw up.  Player 1 immediately notifies them.  They both take their penalties on the score card.  Move on to the next hole.  That's it.  No freaking Committee needed, unless they try to fight it.

 

Player 2 I feel bad the most for.  Not only did she get the penalty, but the caddie handed her the wrong club on that shot

18 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I always find this a stupid situation, especially at the amateur level.

I agree - stupid rule - you can peek at their bag, but not actually discuss golf while golfing.  I wonder the reasoning of how it originated.  I could see that asking and discussion golf shot selection is just plain annoying and distracting and could be abused by "that guy" that thinks he plays head games....

But, rules are the rules....

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Stupidity is not a gift.  If you are trying to be a pro, it is contingent on you and your caddie to know all the rules of golf.  Get a rulebook and learn it all.  If you are uncertain, you can always ask the officials at the LPGA/tournament.

We work for a living and we learn the work we do.  Being a sports pro is a job, albeit better paid.

The pro's who got the penalties deserve it.  Hopefully they will learn from this.  Kim is to be applauded.  She was protecting the field.  KUDOS to her.

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If you ever wonder why tour players almost never call out other pros for rules infractions (despite a fairly significant number who have witnessed something, according to the recent anonymous survey), why backstopping persists, etc. - the blowback that Kim is getting for this is the primary reason why.

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24 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

 

3 - Player 1, who the hell are you to decide to wait to notify a penalty?

The breach happened on 17.  

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1 hour ago, David in FL said:

The breach happened on 17.  

They started on 10.

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I'd previously been of the belief that you are to call out a rules violation as soon as you see one.

You get the penalties sorted at that moment and everyone knows where they stand and can make appropriate decisions going forward.

It never occurred to me that waiting until the end of the round was supposed to be an option.

 

Edited by mcanadiens

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5 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

I'd previously been of the belief that you are to call out a rules violation as soon as you see one.

You get the penalties sorted at that moment and everyone knows where they stand and can make appropriate decisions going forward.

It never occurred to me that waiting until the end of the round was supposed to be an option.

 

In match play yes, but in stroke play that happens all the time if they get additional information or information that was not available at the time.  Countless players have been penalized after completing their rounds.  One story said Kim said something to a rules official during the round and that they were checking on it, but in other story it said Kim waited so as not to distract the players during the round, and even questioned whether she should say something.

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Just went through Christina's Twitter.

I first contacted an official to look into the rule to ensure it was still in effect immediately after we finished the hole. I didn’t wait till after everything was done and dusted to first bring it up to an official.

https://twitter.com/TheChristinaKim

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