PGA Tour's 2020 Pace of Play Changes

[phillyk]

I don't see this changing a lot, if anything.  A lot of non-golfers who see the newest rules controversies in the media already think the rules are a joke. To see someone get penalized for slow play and the player then come out calling BS or whatever is bad press.  Bad press usually means less revenue.  I think the players know this too and will use the media to their advantage to get their way in certain situations.  The PGA Tour will act like most golf courses, have someone to "marshal" but not necessarily change anything.

I wonder if keeping the list private is actually better, for the exact reason of not creating bad press on both the players and Tour.

8 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Here's the issue that I have with that. No one follows half of the rules at the places I play anyway. Those people aren't going to even look at the rules anyway, so how does it change anything? Just break the rules like everyone else does in the story telling situation. Or consider it a time out on the tee box if it makes you feel better about not following a rule to the t in a situation that isn't really applicable.

A lot of people do follow the rules though.  The spirit of the game and handicap relies on people playing with integrity and following the rules.  To do so, the rules need to be worded in a way that reflects all situations.

I don't think of the rules as a law that is broken or not.  They are guides/instructions to play the game.

[Bonvivant]

Just now, phillyk said:

A lot of people do follow the rules though.  The spirit of the game and handicap relies on people playing with integrity and following the rules.  To do so, the rules need to be worded in a way that reflects all situations.

I don't think of the rules as a law that is broken or not.  They are guides/instructions to play the game.

If you include rule 5.6 there aren't many people I have played with that stay under or even around 40 seconds on all shots averaged. They are already breaking the rule that is there to promote prompt play. If you make the rule stiffer, nothing will change immediately, but after people see the pros taking less time (because of enforcement on tour), maybe it will trickle down to the masses over time.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

there aren't many people I have played with that stay under or even around 40 seconds on all shots averaged.

Really? That seems odd to me. Totally opposite with my experiences. People I play with tend to play their shots considerably faster than any tour player. I seldom see such a thorough pre-shot routine or club selection thought as I do on TV.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Really? That seems odd to me. Totally opposite with my experiences. People I play with tend to play their shots considerably faster than any tour player. I seldom see such a thorough pre-shot routine or club selection thought as I do on TV.

Ditto here, especially if you’re standing by “average.”

[David in FL]

6 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

If you include rule 5.6 there aren't many people I have played with that stay under or even around 40 seconds on all shots averaged. They are already breaking the rule that is there to promote prompt play. If you make the rule stiffer, nothing will change immediately, but after people see the pros taking less time (because of enforcement on tour), maybe it will trickle down to the masses over time.

Look at your watch sometime while one of your buddies is playing.  40 seconds is forever!

[Cartboy]

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

Look at your watch sometime while one of your buddies is playing.  40 seconds is forever!

I was just going to say that, watch your watch when you're playing and watch your watch when your watching on TV, and see what is a reasonable amount of time.

It seems like some of the pros take way more than they need to, but, frankly, without timing them I don't long they actually take.

Except for Snedeker, of course . . . don't need to time him.  I'm play like him, figuring if I take any longer I'm just gonna screw it up.

[Bonvivant]

I suppose I could be way off base, but the tee box is where I see it the most, especially if no one is in front of them. I don't understand how my foursome can hit approach shots, chips, putts, hole out everything, but as soon as the flag is put back in, or the last putt is holed and we get to the carts/start walking to the tee box, the two-foursome in front of us speeds off like indy car drivers, only to sit in the fairway for 5 minutes (4x40=2:40), putt for 7 minutes, and then rinse and repeat as to never let us play through. I would say that the average hole time is somewhere around 17 minutes when it should be 10 minutes max if they followed 5.6 (yes I am including cart/walk time).

I was watching the LPGA championship today, and it took one lady upwards of 5 minutes to decide to play her ball (lefty upside down), or take an unplayable. Her caddie suggested within the first 10 seconds to take the unplayable, which is what she did eventually. She was in the hunt and it was an important decision, but I don't know how her playing partners didn't say anything about it.

[Missouri Swede]

10 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

If you include rule 5.6 there aren't many people I have played with that stay under or even around 40 seconds on all shots averaged.

I played in a group of three today.  Arccos says we played 18 holes in 3:12 (192 minutes).

In that time, I walked 5.25 miles. Estimate walking speed 3 mph equals 1:45 (105 minutes) “transport time” for us during our round—getting from shot to shot.  So we’re left with 87 minutes for three of us to take our shots. Estimate 83 shots for each of us, which is probably reasonable after excluding tap-ins, is 249 shots.

249 shots in 87 minutes (5220 seconds) is just under 21 seconds per shot. And a lot of that time was spent waiting on the group ahead of us, every hole. Want to average it for all shots to include tap-ins, then it’s even lower than that by a couple seconds.

[leftybutnotPM]

13 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

If you include rule 5.6 there aren't many people I have played with that stay under or even around 40 seconds on all shots averaged. 

Are you kidding? You think 40 seconds is normal!!!!!????

I would think 30 seconds is 15 seconds longer than it should be .

On 11/24/2019 at 3:12 AM, Patch said:

These are independent contractors out there trying to make a living. They are still considered independent contractors, right? Is the pga exempt from the various right to work laws? Could a player sue the pga for discrimination, and loss of income? Could a golf equipment manufacturer cry foul because the pga, per their rules, made their sponsored player look bad, which in turn looks bad for their equipment?

 Can this 45 second rule eventually turn into a can of worms? 

They put 140+/- number of golfers on the course, who I p

So what if they're "independent contractors", a term PGATour players often use to excuse some of the the polarizing views they have?

Are you suggesting that because someone is working they can do as they please?

How about an independent contractor who lays 5 bricks an hour? Is that cool too?

Edited November 25, 2019 by leftybutnotPM

[Bonvivant]

7 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

I played in a group of three today.  Arccos says we played 18 holes in 3:12 (192 minutes).

In that time, I walked 5.25 miles. Estimate walking speed 3 mph equals 1:45 (105 minutes) “transport time” for us during our round—getting from shot to shot.  So we’re left with 87 minutes for three of us to take our shots. Estimate 83 shots for each of us, which is probably reasonable after excluding tap-ins, is 249 shots.

249 shots in 87 minutes (5220 seconds) is just under 21 seconds per shot. And a lot of that time was spent waiting on the group ahead of us, every hole. Want to average it for all shots to include tap-ins, then it’s even lower than that by a couple seconds.

This is a decent pace, but if you get around your normal track in under 4 hours during the summer months, I envy you. My local courses take at least 4:15 during times that a 9 to 5er can play. Winter golf is different of course, because no one is out there. I get it that there are people that play at a decent pace out there, but this is about the PGA and the potential effect it has on casual players' pace.

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

This is a decent pace, but if you get around your normal track in under 4 hours during the summer months, I envy you. My local courses take at least 4:15 during times that a 9 to 5er can play.

If we had played in 4:15, it still would have been under 40 seconds (36.1).  And if a fourth had joined us for that 4:15, it would have been 27 seconds.

The point wasn’t this particular course or winter play. It was to try to demonstrate that for an average round of amateurs, 40 seconds per shot is a LONG time, even if that 40 seconds includes time spent waiting on the group ahead. 

[Double Mocha Man]

On 11/24/2019 at 9:48 PM, leftybutnotPM said:

How about an independent contractor who lays 5 bricks an hour? Is that cool too?

Hey, c'mon Lefty, we all know DeChambeau lays 6 bricks an hour...

[pganapathy]

I really hope the PGA/R&A penalise a few golfers a stroke or two.  That will really get them to care enough about to speed up.  Of course, only if they keep penalising golfers will it make a difference.  If not, it will be the flavour of the month and then people will forget about it🤨

[GolfLug]

I join the chorus of posters who think there will be a small change. It seems more of an attempt to protect the not so slow players more than penalizing the slow players by breaking down the group policy.

I dream of a day when a player is 'ejected' for taking 5 minutes to decide their shot pick AFTER the first player hits. 

[colin007]

On 11/26/2019 at 6:37 PM, GolfLug said:

I join the chorus of posters who think there will be a small change. It seems more of an attempt to protect the not so slow players more than penalizing the slow players by breaking down the group policy.

I dream of a day when a player is 'ejected' for taking 5 minutes to decide their shot pick AFTER the first player hits. 

If by "ejected" you mean "shot" then I am with you brother

[GolfLug]

35 minutes ago, colin007 said:

If by "ejected" you mean "shot" then I am with you brother

Damn bud.. you ragin.

[p1n9183]

 

None - It's all for show. They never applied a penalty for slow play before and they will never do it in the future.

Every player apply a penalty on themselves if they know they broke a rule and because of that the media talk marbelous things about their integrity, but I don´t see any player applying a penalty on themselves for breaking the slow play rule... 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 11/24/2019 at 11:06 AM, ncates00 said:

Yeah that's a good point.  Maybe carve out an exception, i.e., "based upon the circumstances" or something.  Although I know the rule governs all play as you stated, I was really responding more to a local rule/Tour rule (although not stated).  

I still think it should say must even in the rule, however.  Just carve out a reasonableness standard or something to cover those instances where you and your buddies are playing with few others on the course.

@iacas has a good point on it's own merit. And if the word must is in the rule, what room is there to carve out a "reasonableness" standard? 

I remember reading an essay by Feherty where he cited someone asking him if there should be two sets of rules, one for pros and one for amateurs. He said there already are. In fact, more than two! They're called "Local Rules". Just look at the back of the scorecard of any course you play. It will say, something like, The Rules of Golf apply except...and then will follow the Local Rules.