Jump to content
IGNORED

Embedded Ball Holed?


iacas
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Moderator
2 minutes ago, Dutch Boy said:

IMO If the ball is embedded rule 16.3b applies and relief may be taken  by dropping a ball in the relief area right behind where the ball was embedded.

 

16.3b only applies when the ball is embedded in the general area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

10 minutes ago, Asheville said:

 

For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

This certainly seems to be applicable here, no? So it's holed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

What about this scenario? I get that it is highly unlikely, but I am just curious. If this is no good, what if 50 percent of the ball is in the cup, or 80? This is not a ball that has entered through the mouth, but it is a ball that is completely underneath the putting surface and within the confines of the hole.

I get the rule now, but I don't like the way it contradicts with replacement of a ball. That's something I'll just have to deal with if I'm ever as unfortunate as the guy that posted the picture.

embed.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

@Bonvivant, rules for replacing a ball on a spot is 14.2. The section you want is d which covers where to replace a ball when the original lie is altered. Specially, 14.2d(2) for the putting green:

Quote

(2) Ball Anywhere Except in Sand. When the ball was anywhere except in sand, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot with a lie most similar to the original lie that is:

Within one club-length from its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2c),

Not nearer the hole, and

In the same area of the course as that spot.

 

6 minutes ago, colin007 said:

This certainly seems to be applicable here, no? So it's holed?

No, ball embedded in side of hole is covered in the interpretations which I quoted earlier.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 minute ago, billchao said:

@Bonvivant, rules for replacing a ball on a spot is 14.2. The section you want is d which covers where to replace a ball when the original lie is altered. Specially, 14.2d(2) for the putting green:

 

Thanks for the clarification. I read through the rules at one point in time, but definitely don't remember everything. This 14.2d(2) is the key. Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Just now, Bonvivant said:

Thanks for the clarification. I read through the rules at one point in time, but definitely don't remember everything. This 14.2d(2) is the key. Cheers!

Neither do I, but I try anyway. I focus on the general concepts and know how to look up the specifics when needed, like in this case. I couldn’t even tell you it was rule 14 until I looked it up.

Good thing I never became a lawyer 😃

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
4 minutes ago, Dutch Boy said:

Oops!, My first post and I got it wrong 😖

No worries. I’ve made thousands of posts and have been wrong thousands of times. 😃

Welcome to TST, BTW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

34 minutes ago, billchao said:

@Bonvivant, rules for replacing a ball on a spot is 14.2. The section you want is d which covers where to replace a ball when the original lie is altered. Specially, 14.2d(2) for the putting green:

 

No, ball embedded in side of hole is covered in the interpretations which I quoted earlier.

I don't think any of us has as much info as we'd like based on the photo. Is it possible this ball is both embedded and resting against the stick?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Just now, colin007 said:

I don't think any of us has as much info as we'd like based on the photo. Is it possible this ball is both embedded and resting against the stick?

Still covered by the interpretation, which I’ll post again:

Quote

Holed/1 – All of the Ball Must Be Below the Surface to Be Holed When Embedded in Side of Hole

When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed. This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick.

 

  • Informative 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

21 minutes ago, colin007 said:

I don't think any of us has as much info as we'd like based on the photo. Is it possible this ball is both embedded and resting against the stick?

Ya, I thought the same thing.   I downloaded the pic, blew it up and it is resting against the stick but I did learn something from this...Thanks Erik, Bill and Asheville.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

20 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

What about this scenario? I get that it is highly unlikely, but I am just curious. If this is no good, what if 50 percent of the ball is in the cup, or 80? This is not a ball that has entered through the mouth, but it is a ball that is completely underneath the putting surface and within the confines of the hole.

I get the rule now, but I don't like the way it contradicts with replacement of a ball. That's something I'll just have to deal with if I'm ever as unfortunate as the guy that posted the picture.

embed.jpg

The picture is interesting. Let's put aside the wrinkle that the likelihood is so close to zero to probably not matter.

IMO, the Rules do not provide an answer here, because it is entirely outside the situations that the Rules and Definitions are intended for. Consequently, this discussion is just speculation.

Rule 13.2c, ball against flagstick, does not apply. Rule 13.3, ball overhanging hole, does not apply because of line 1 "if any part of the ball overhangs the LIP of the hole", which is not the case here.

So we are left with trying to extract an answer from Holed/1's words: When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed.  For me, the ball is 1) embedded and 2) in the side of the hole, but it is not embedded in the side of the hole.  But this is an arguable semantic distinction.

If you want an answer, I think you need to send it in to the USGA.  They may reply with "call me when it happens".

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
21 minutes ago, fredf said:

IMO, the Rules do not provide an answer here, because it is entirely outside the situations that the Rules and Definitions are intended for. Consequently, this discussion is just speculation.

Thomas Pagel doesn't seem to agree that there's no answer within the Rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Just now, Bonvivant said:

He's talking about my crude drawing I believe.

Oh, yeah, I missed that if so.

I've only ever seen a ball really embed that deep on a very, very soft fairway. Never on a green down > 1.68".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

40 minutes ago, fredf said:

The picture is interesting. Let's put aside the wrinkle that the likelihood is so close to zero to probably not matter.

IMO, the Rules do not provide an answer here, because it is entirely outside the situations that the Rules and Definitions are intended for. Consequently, this discussion is just speculation.

Rule 13.2c, ball against flagstick, does not apply. Rule 13.3, ball overhanging hole, does not apply because of line 1 "if any part of the ball overhangs the LIP of the hole", which is not the case here.

So we are left with trying to extract an answer from Holed/1's words: When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed.  For me, the ball is 1) embedded and 2) in the side of the hole, but it is not embedded in the side of the hole.  But this is an arguable semantic distinction.

If you want an answer, I think you need to send it in to the USGA.  They may reply with "call me when it happens".

I can live with Holed/1. Should I see it, I'll call it in to the Tournament Director or SRO along with a photo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


18 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh, yeah, I missed that if so.

I've only ever seen a ball really embed that deep on a very, very soft fairway. Never on a green down > 1.68".

Yeah. Highly unlikely but I was just curious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
3 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Yeah. Highly unlikely but I was just curious.

Given five seconds of thought, more than highly unlikely: almost impossible, given that there's going to be a plastic or metal cup liner in there, preventing any part of the ball from being "inside" the circumference of the hole. No?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • Support TST Affiliates

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct links for Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package. Save 10% on Mevo with coupon code "IACAS" as well.
  • Posts

    • Today I played Hillandale with one of the guys from work, and we had an early tee time (8:51). On the front I shot 39, solid golf but nothing super interesting apart from the par-3 seventh hole, where after a horrible tee shot that left me shortsided I hit one of the greatest flop shots of my life to within two feet for the par save. I also had the no-sixes streak going. The back was slightly more interesting. I saved bogey on 12 after I hooked a drive OB, and took advantage of having a 6 iron into the short par-5 14th and made birdie. The other seven holes were four pars and three bogeys, which added up to another 39. So 39-39 for 78! Granted, we were playing the whites, but it still feels good to put up a number in the 70s. Honestly, today’s golf was of the “boring” variety apart from the few holes I mentioned. Thanks to the save on 12 and a rock solid short game I was able to keep everything to a bogey or better, and because I didn’t bogey a par 5 that also means I knocked out the no sixes challenge! I’ll put my hole by hole scores in the achievements thread. My index has also dropped significantly in the last two rounds, from an 11.5 before yesterday’s round to a (pending) 10.6 after today. Hopefully I can carry that momentum into when we play down at the beach next week!
    • Day 2 (yesterday) - Light range session with some slow short swings just working on my feeling for getting the club to shallow out a bit more to start the downswing. Day 3 (today) - Did some mirror work and worked on a couple shallowing drills in my garage
    • Wow, that's way too depressing to see on this thread. Time to change it. TLDR, I suffered a serious setback after my last post here and it took 2.5 years to recover. I have barely played golf these last six years, but I'm kind of, sort of back right now. I still get treatment regularly, and all I can do is hope I can manage these issues so I can return to the game I love so much. I don't necessarily want to relive the last couple years here right now, but just know they were really difficult.  I played 9 today with my dad from 5700-5800 yards. This is my third time playing since returning in mid-June. I played remarkably well all things considered. This was the only swing we filmed today, and it's with my dad's Ping G10 7-iron, but this is more or less what I did all day. I shot +4 with no birdies and didn't lose a ball. I was hitting driver between 220 and 260 yards, but most of them went like 250 I think? I hit this thin bleeder cut all day, but it was predictable and functional.  Erik fixed my setup by getting some weight out of my heels, but the swing thought I'm using to make my swing function is "make a super armsy downswing." Brian Creghan gave me that tip years ago and it still works. If I don't use this swing thought, my swing stops being functional. I'm also trying to stay super soft, relaxed and short with my action.  I guess I should include a FO. Here's the only one I have so far. It's a PW (a mulligan) on a short par 3. This was June 20th at the same course (Sandhill Crane in Palm Beach Gardens). I thinned this onto the green. Sorry for some reason, it won't let me embed it.  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-EIbHWqOMEU Here's a rear view six iron, also from June 20. This drew too much but hit the fairway and I ended up making par (300 yard par-4).    Anyway, like I said, Erik gave me a good setup fix (less weight on heels) and I'm using "swing arms" as my priority. I know my swing doesn't look great but it's really functional despite how it looks. I've lost maybe one ball thru 27 holes? No range until tonight where I hit that only ball.  Fingers crossed I can maintain my health this time around. I'm getting some treatment at Palm Beach Sports Medicine tomorrow with a good DPT. Still trying to fix some stuff on the anterior deltoid that bothers me at times, but things in general with my shoulders are a lot better than they used to be. I eat the keto diet now (3+ years running), I workout/rehab regularly, and my sleep/stress has been really healthy this past year. It's all helping me get better.  Hopefully I can update this thread often in the future since that means I'm healthy. Cheers, guys. Thanks for reading. 🙂
    • Yes. And they're welcome to come to the event on the 30th in Ohio, and create another topic if they want to set up an event in WNY later this summer. 🙂 Interested List: @saevel25 @iacas @RFKFREAK @Carl3 @Hardspoon @vasaribm @brockman21 @ChetlovesMer @Slim_Pivot @Greenshirt100
    • Yeah, there's a few folks on the forum who live in upstate/western NY.
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Chicagolfer
      Chicagolfer
      (32 years old)
    2. IlliniBoy
      IlliniBoy
      (36 years old)
    3. Provisional
      Provisional
      (77 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...