Flag Knocked Down by Wind

[billchao]

Just now, Bonvivant said:

You are gaining an advantage against your competitors that is manufactured or unnatural in my mind. 

Then you can replace it before you take your shot from wherever you are. You’re allowed to do so. The rules allow you to play with the obstruction in place. If you don’t want to take advantage of the rules when they can potentially help you, that’s on you.

[rehmwa]

6 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Is there not a clause saying that you should play within the spirit of the game in the rule book?

I see zero ways that this type of generalized comment would be definable or enforcible, or conducted in ways that wouldn't cause fights and arguments and bad assumptions being debated endlessly.

I seems the 'spirit of the game' is defined already in areas where it could be defined.

I like G-Dad's comment - Rules aren't fair on unfair, they only need to be consistent and defined clearly.  (which, ironically, is the only thing I personally consider 'fair')

[humblepeasant]

Does anyone know for sure if anyone in your group can move it at any time? Say your competitor has a chip onto a steep downhill green with the flagstick on the ground as a backstop right behind the hole...can you move it before he takes his shot so he doesn't have that advantage? Or can you move it only when it's your "turn" (not to mention, if playing ready golf, who's turn is it anyway)

[David in FL]

Shit happens.  
 

The same thing could happen with a forgotten golf club, or a large piece of debris that had blown onto the green.  Taking advantage of a rule when the situation allows you to do so isn’t against the “spirit of the game”.  It’s just how the game is played.

[Bonvivant]

5 minutes ago, humblepeasant said:

Does anyone know for sure if anyone in your group can move it at any time? Say your competitor has a chip onto a steep downhill green with the flagstick on the ground as a backstop right behind the hole...can you move it before he takes his shot so he doesn't have that advantage? Or can you move it only when it's your "turn" (not to mention, if playing ready golf, who's turn is it anyway)

I would also like to know the answer to this. To me there would be no issue at all if I can move it at any time, because I would just put it to its proper place before anyone could gain an advantage from it. 

[David in FL]

33 minutes ago, humblepeasant said:

Does anyone know for sure if anyone in your group can move it at any time? Say your competitor has a chip onto a steep downhill green with the flagstick on the ground as a backstop right behind the hole...can you move it before he takes his shot so he doesn't have that advantage? Or can you move it only when it's your "turn" (not to mention, if playing ready golf, who's turn is it anyway)

Yes you may.

Rule 11.3 applies...

When a ball is in motion, a player must not deliberately take any of these actions to affect where that ball (whether the player’s own ball or another player’s ball) might come to rest:

• Alter physical conditions by taking any of the actions listed in Rule 8.1a (such as replacing a divot or pressing down a raised area of turf), or

• Lift or move:

» A loose impediment (see Rule 15.1a, Exception 2), or

» A movable obstruction (see Rule 15.2a, Exception 2)

Exception – Moving Flagstick, Ball at Rest on Putting Green and Other Player Equipment: This Rule does not prohibit a player from lifting or moving:

• A removed flagstick,

[Bonvivant]

28 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Yes you may.

Rule 11.3 applies...

When a ball is in motion, a player must not deliberately take any of these actions to affect where that ball (whether the player’s own ball or another player’s ball) might come to rest:

• Alter physical conditions by taking any of the actions listed in Rule 8.1a (such as replacing a divot or pressing down a raised area of turf), or

• Lift or move:

» A loose impediment (see Rule 15.1a, Exception 2), or

» A movable obstruction (see Rule 15.2a, Exception 2)

Exception – Moving Flagstick, Ball at Rest on Putting Green and Other Player Equipment: This Rule does not prohibit a player from lifting or moving:

• A removed flagstick,

This is interesting and good info. So not only can you move it before the player's stroke, you can move it after they strike the ball! You could trick a player into taking what looks like an advantage, altering their strategy, and then pick up the stick before the ball gets there, and watch the ball run on by. Captital!

Edited January 27, 2020 by Bonvivant

[rehmwa]

9 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

You could trick a player...........watch the ball run on by. Captital!

the true "spirit of the game"

[Bonvivant]

1 minute ago, rehmwa said:

the true "spirit of the game"

I'm joking about this. I wouldn't deceive a playing partner like this. I'm just pointing out how much room there is for abuse on both sides of this situation. I would stop the player before their shot and move it if this ever came up greenside. From the middle of the fairway I wouldn't worry about it. 

[rehmwa]

4 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I'm joking about this. I wouldn't deceive a playing partner like this. I'm just pointing out how much room there is for abuse on both sides of this situation. I would stop the player before their shot and move it if this ever came up greenside. From the middle of the fairway I wouldn't worry about it. 

I actually caught that and thought it was a good post.... - I forgot the smiley face so my reply might have come across poorly.  (I was referring to an earlier post in a wry fashion, not so much poking at you.  my bad)

Edited January 27, 2020 by rehmwa

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, humblepeasant said:

Does anyone know for sure if anyone in your group can move it at any time? Say your competitor has a chip onto a steep downhill green with the flagstick on the ground as a backstop right behind the hole...can you move it before he takes his shot so he doesn't have that advantage? Or can you move it only when it's your "turn" (not to mention, if playing ready golf, who's turn is it anyway)

Here's the rule:

Quote

a. Relief from Movable Obstruction
(1) Removal of Movable Obstruction. Without penalty, a player may remove a movable obstruction anywhere on or off the course and may do so in any way.

You can remove the obstruction.  It doesn't say you have to wait until its your turn, it says you can remove it.  That's Rule 15.2a. The flagstick is specifically listed as obstruction in the definition of obstruction.  

[Bonvivant]

7 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

I actually caught that and thought it was a good post.... - I forgot the smiley face so my reply might have come across poorly.  (I was referring to an earlier post in a wry fashion, not so much poking at you.  my bad)

No need for apologies. I thought that you got the humor, I just wanted to make sure everyone knew it was a joke, and the I'm not that big of a jerk. Cheers. 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

Well how I would write it would be that the pin must be in the cup before approaching the green.

So now the Rules have to contemplate what "approaching the green" means, and it means that any time a good player is within 230-250 yards of the hole, perhaps, that they have to ensure that the flagstick is in the hole, lest they be penalized?

[Bonvivant]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

So now the Rules have to contemplate what "approaching the green" means, and it means that any time a good player is within 230-250 yards of the hole, perhaps, that they have to ensure that the flagstick is in the hole, lest they be penalized?

Yes. 

[billchao]

4 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Yes. 

That’ll be great for pace of play 🙃

How, exactly, would you propose this rule be written?

[Bonvivant]

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

That’ll be great for pace of play 🙃

How, exactly, would you propose this rule be written?

"It is the player's responsiblity to ensure the flagstick is in the hole on approach. If a player takes a stroke that hits the flagstick while it is out of the hole, a 1 stroke penalty is incurred and the ball shall be played as it lies."

Edit*

As far as PoP is concerned, walking to replace the pin might take 3 minutes or so but that's nothing considering how rare it is and how it takes most people 15 minutes to play a hole anyway. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Bonvivant

[humblepeasant]

1 minute ago, Bonvivant said:

"It is the player's responsiblity to ensure the flagstick is in the hole on approach. If a player takes a stroke that hits the flagstick while it is out of the hole, a 1 stroke penalty is incurred and the ball shall be played as it lies."

To me, though, it would be too time consuming and an unreasonable burden on players to have to ride or even walk all the way to the green and back before a tee shot on a par three, or a long second shot on a par 5 to the green, etc.

So the question is, where EXACTLY would you draw the line? Because that would so difficult to do in a completely objective and universal way, I guess that's why the rule is no penalty at all.

[billchao]

5 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

"It is the player's responsiblity to ensure the flagstick is in the hole on approach. If a player takes a stroke that hits the flagstick while it is out of the hole, a 1 stroke penalty is incurred and the ball shall be played as it lies."

There’s no definition for approach.

And that’s before we start discussing why there would even be a penalty for the flagstick being out of the hole when playing from the general area but none when playing from the putting green.