A Common Fitting Mistake

[DrvFrShow]

On 3/8/2020 at 8:16 AM, DennisMiller said:

Honestly, no offense intended to anyone here, but why do spin numbers really matter? I'm interested in an end result, not the biproduct stats of hitting balls.

 

When you're testing say wedges, do spin numbers matter? Yeah, they do... big time. You want to know how the club will perform at say 50 yds, 70 yds, and full shots. Make sure you bring a sleeve of your own balls. 

Why "eyeball" it when we have instruments that make this stuff so much easier?

[Rippy_72]

On 3/7/2020 at 11:03 PM, Vinsk said:

I’ve never had a fitting done that poorly. No data or lie board? No sharpie on the ball? Most places don’t have shafts already at the resulted length, they cut them or make them longer. CC is very thorough but the downside is they’ll fit you into high-end shafts that are quite expensive. I don’t think ‘most’ fittings are as poor as you described.

I had a $345 fitting recently at a well known fitting shop that did not measure ball speed, launch angle, spin with irons nor was a sharpie or lie board used.  They measured shaft loading.  I came into the fitting with hard stepped KBS Tour X flex, that became too much for me to hit due to age and body issue.  They built me a 6 iron 1.5 inches over standard, grips much thicker (4 layers of tape more), and probably S300 shafts.  After hundreds and hundreds of balls with the new shaft, the dispersion and ball flight was so miserable that I gave up on the "fit".    Ballooning balls and 20-30 huge "draws" although the sole did rest on the heel.  Likely too soft a shaft and too upright a lie angle.  So, I reckon my fit was worse.

Very strange to me that any good golfer would not care almost exclusively about spin and dispersion of shots on approaches with an iron.  Does anything else really matter.  Not that one needs to know the numbers if eyes work good.  For instance, I used to not be able to play the normal Pro V1 on softer greens because it spun too much whereas the Pro V1X spun too little on firm and fast greens.  You can just see it, you don't need a fancy lunch monitor.  Some people are not numbers oriented and one could argue that on course performance matters more than hitting off a mat with lousy balls vs. turf and whatever ball one usually plays.

 

[billchao]

2 hours ago, Rippy_72 said:

Very strange to me that any good golfer would not care almost exclusively about spin and dispersion of shots on approaches with an iron.  Does anything else really matter. 

Yes, absolutely. Launch angle matters, whether you have too much or too little spin in combination with it. Descent angle matters. Peak height matters.

If anything, being better at the game makes the minutia of ball flight even more important.

[Rippy_72]

8 hours ago, billchao said:

Yes, absolutely. Launch angle matters, whether you have too much or too little spin in combination with it. Descent angle matters. Peak height matters.

If anything, being better at the game makes the minutia of ball flight even more important.

I did not mean to imply hitting a knockdown or other tragectories does not matter or that getting shafts correct did not matter.  I wasted a lot of money and nearly a whole day to get a fitting with a terrible ball flight.    For me, once I have the shafts and ball selected, I tend not to often change launch angles meaning I control check aka suck with spin and ball placement on the green, which for me is achieved with distance control and dispersion.  I honestly cannot recall a better player making a good shot and expressing displeasure over the launch angle of an approach shot.  Descent angle is more affected by headwind or tailwind.  In benign conditions, my ball flight is very consistent on approach shots and relatively low.  I have shot many, many rounds in the 60's.  I have seen high ball flight players shoot low scores.  I think consistency is what matters because it gives you a good pattern to your shots and lets you know what risks are reasonably when hitting into the green.  Consistent spin and dispersion is about all I think about once the ball and shafts are selected.  That is what I was thinking when I wrote that.  I could be wrong.  I can be simple.

[billchao]

31 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

I did not mean to imply hitting a knockdown or other tragectories does not matter or that getting shafts correct did not matter.  I wasted a lot of money and nearly a whole day to get a fitting with a terrible ball flight.    For me, once I have the shafts and ball selected, I tend not to often change launch angles meaning I control check aka suck with spin and ball placement on the green, which for me is achieved with distance control and dispersion.  I honestly cannot recall a better player making a good shot and expressing displeasure over the launch angle of an approach shot.  Descent angle is more affected by headwind or tailwind.  In benign conditions, my ball flight is very consistent on approach shots and relatively low.  I have shot many, many rounds in the 60's.  I have seen high ball flight players shoot low scores.  I think consistency is what matters because it gives you a good pattern to your shots and lets you know what risks are reasonably when hitting into the green.  Consistent spin and dispersion is about all I think about once the ball and shafts are selected.  That is what I was thinking when I wrote that.  I could be wrong.  I can be simple.

You mean after the fitting? Like when you’re going out and playing golf?

I would think better players aren’t thinking about their equipment at all when they’re on the course 🤷🏻

[Rippy_72]

41 minutes ago, billchao said:

You mean after the fitting? Like when you’re going out and playing golf?

I would think better players aren’t thinking about their equipment at all when they’re on the course 🤷🏻

That is what I said in my first post.  Use your eyes not a fancy launch monitor.  I could not select shafts, heads, grips purely on launch monitor data.  Frankly, my first fitting with one was a disaster and probably would never go for another fitting in my life.    I want to see how my preferred ball reacts on the green when practicing, on the golf course with real turf.  That is generally a key point of practice rounds.  I cannot imagine using just a launch monitor when getting your equipment dialed.  Once dialed in, it is mostly about the conditions and specific holes that are a pain.   This is generally how I practice.....mostly on the golf course.  I could never be confident in equipment just because of data from a launch monitor.  YMMV.  

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

That is what I said in my first post.

It's a thread about club fitting. What does playing have to do with it?

9 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Frankly, my first fitting with one was a disaster and probably would never go for another fitting in my life.

You had a bad experience with it so you think it's worthless?

Based on what you wrote above, your fitting was overpriced and sucked.

11 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

I want to see how my preferred ball reacts on the green when practicing, on the golf course with real turf.

Most people don't have access to this type of club fitting.

12 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

That is generally a key point of practice rounds.

A practice round is not a club fitting. Even tour pros get fit on driving ranges.

15 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

I cannot imagine using just a launch monitor when getting your equipment dialed.

I cannot imagine using only your eyes when getting your equipment dialed. Not even Tiger does that.

16 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

This is generally how I practice.....mostly on the golf course.

Again, this thread is about club fitting, not practicing or playing golf.

[iacas]

Uhm, everything @billchao just said.

Good players often DO want to know the numbers. Spin. Launch angle. Ball speed. Descent angle. Etc.

[onthehunt526]

On 2/6/2020 at 5:18 PM, iacas said:

Guy goes in to get a fitting.

Warms up, hits his 6-iron. They get some numbers (I'm quasi-making these up😞

• 171 carry, 176 total.
• 5780 RPM spin.
• Launch of 20.1°.
• Dispersion is about 35 yards.
• Ball speed is 119.2… whatever.

Fitter builds him a club or some clubs, all 6-irons. Fitter is able to get to these numbers:

• 185 carry, 188 total.
• 5350 RPM spin.
• Launch of 19.3°.
• Dispersion is about 37 yards.
• Ball speed is 123.4.

What does the Guy often see? "Oh my I carry it 14 yards farther!"

What should the Guy do? Realize that he's hitting his old 5I and compare the numbers to that club.

What's important in fitting is not the number on the sole, it's how well you can perform* at the yardages you need. * This means the dispersion/accuracy, the landing angle, the height, total spin, etc. In other words, don't compare your 6I to a new 6I, compare the club you hit the distance of your fitting test clubs against those test clubs. If they only fit with 6Is, consider hitting your 5I and your 6I (and maybe even your 4I) as a basis for comparison. See if you're more accurate or get better numbers while maintaining the same carry yardage. Ignore the number on the sole.

You want to compare the clubs that are the most similar, not the clubs that have the same number on the sole.

@iacas, this sounds like a lot of fittings to me. “OMG I’m hitting it 14 yards further”. I’m a tall guy 6’6 1/2” to be exact (I digress). When I got fitted for my Exotics irons a few years ago. (When I had the EXi irons) I was playing off the rack CUs prior to that. I gained 7 yards when I got fitted. But originally at a cost. My dispersion was all over the place. You could’ve almost built a Walmart between my worst and best shots. Eventually I got put into a better shaft and the dispersion went down.

Fast forward to 2 1/2 weeks ago. Same fitter. We know each other well. I look him in the eye and say I’ve been looking at the Srixon line. I actually hit it further now with a shorter swing then I did then. I grab my CBX blade 7-iron. I hit 10 shots. I’m hitting it 170 carry 174 total with a 22 degree launch spin in the low 7000s. Dispersion around 25 yards. I originally was hitting the Z585. (That thing is a rocket). I was averaging close to 185 carry but the spin was only around 5500. So he put me in a Z785 carry around 180 with the spin ballooning back up to the high 6000s (6800 if memory serves me right). He puts me in the C-Taper shaft. Bingo. 6300 spin same carry, dispersion a little less, and I’m happy. Never thought my 150 yard club would ever be a gripped down 9-iron again. But it is. 

I told my fitter that I wanted to limit the big pull or block and I did. That was through lessons, and a shitload of hard work. My step-through is gone. But I’ll show you that in a my swing video soon.

[Vinsk]

PXG came out to my club yesterday. They had a fitting scheduled with a guy ( surprised they did this with all the equipment touching that’s done) and it seemed like a disaster to me.

This poor guy was one of those who I think is conning himself. He thinks he will miraculously be a good ball striker if he buys the PXG clubs.

Shank, top, chunk, skull and a couple of whiffs. So here’s the TrackMan set up and literally this guy hits maybe 5 shots that weren’t a disaster. The ones he did hit were weak pushes or sliced.

Every poor shot the guy would announce what he did like he’s surprised. ‘I chunked it?’ ‘ How did I slice that?’ He remained dead silent when he whiffed it.

The fitter just sat back there patiently waiting to be able to register some data which must’ve been difficult. Finally after over 30 minutes of this guy non-stop talking about how he usually hits it the fitter says, ‘ How bout we try some drivers..’ I refrained from lol. 

I can’t imagine what good this ‘fitting’ did for this lost soul. It seemed more like a fitting that turned into a one hour lesson.

[mizune]

Golf Player gets fitted, goes to fitter, swings out of his shoes, gets fitted for x stiff, brags to everyone about his fitting session, buys x stiff 

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, mizune said:

Golf Player gets fitted, goes to fitter, swings out of his shoes, gets fitted for x stiff, brags to everyone about his fitting session, buys x stiff 

Welcome to The Sand Trap. I think a good fitter would recognize if the player was over swinging. 

[GolfLug]

6 hours ago, mizune said:

Golf Player gets fitted, goes to fitter, swings out of his shoes, gets fitted for x stiff, brags to everyone about his fitting session, buys x stiff 

Yes, if you tip-toe when getting fitted for a pair of slacks and your tailor doesn't realize (unlikely), guess what you are coming home with..😊?

[dennyjones]

6 hours ago, mizune said:

Golf Player gets fitted, goes to fitter, swings out of his shoes, gets fitted for x stiff, brags to everyone about his fitting session, buys x stiff 

Welcome to TST.   

Golf Player get fitted, goes to fitter.   The numbers show the best fit for this particular golfer.   If other options weren't tested, it wasn't a good fitting.    The numbers,dispersion and to some extent personal preference should dictate clubs purchased. 

[billchao]

10 hours ago, mizune said:

Golf Player gets fitted, goes to fitter, swings out of his shoes, gets fitted for x stiff, brags to everyone about his fitting session, buys x stiff 

I would imagine a person swinging in excess of their normal speed is not likely going to be able to keep it up for very long without getting tired, especially during a proper fitting that might last 45 minutes to an hour plus.

That, and you can’t add that much speed by swinging out of your shoes in the first place. A guy who averages 95mph isn’t going to average 115mph during a fitting no matter how hard they try. If a guy swinging faster during a fitting ends up with x-stiff  shafts over stiff shafts, they were in on the border to begin with; being that there’s no industry standard for shaft stiffness, one company’s x-stiff could be the same as another’s stiff anyway.

A good fitter is going to be able to weed out somebody “faking” it and they’re not simply just going to match shaft stiffness to swing speed to begin with. The launch conditions matter. I went to the same fitter for my driver and my iron fittings. He fit me into a x-stiff driver shaft and a stiff iron shaft, because I tend to launch the ball too low and I needed a slightly softer shaft to offset that.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 3/5/2020 at 10:21 PM, snapfade said:

Sorry, I just read this. So what you are saying, as far as I understand, is with a fitting, accuracy/ dispersion is the goal, not necessarily the distance? Seems logical to me. For me, I am more concerned with accuracy and forgiveness than with distance. It seems like the mentality is longer is better, and it should be accuracy is better. I'd take 250 to a good lie in the fairway over 290 in the bushes. We get bombarded every new club cycle with how long something is. I am glad that you have emphasized the importance of performance, and there should be a #accuracytrumpsdistance movement. Thanks for the info.  

Exactly! Many years ago I played in the "Youngstown Sheet & Tube" league, even though I had never worked for the company! They needed some guys, and my buddy invited me to join up. There was an older member, WELL past retirement age, who could hit his Driver maybe 180-190! I played with him quite a few times, and he was never in trouble! Every shot was dead down the middle! Always in the short grass. And he scored quite well.