Just Fitted, new driver worth it?

[ncates00]

43 minutes ago, Adam C said:

At 165 ball speed, you don't need or want 15 degrees or more of launch angle. It's too much by far. For control and better overall distance you want to be around 12 degrees. You can look at tour guys around that 165 ball speed. All of them are under 12 degrees of launch. 

That's slightly overstated/generalized.  The optimal launch angle for a player depends on other factors too, e.g., angle of attack, backspin, dynamic loft, and the player's desired trajectory (carry v. total).  A tour player who is only around 165 mph of ball speed and 12* of launch theoretically is not optimizing their driver as there are faster players with higher launch than 12*.  Again, one must look at the totality of the circumstances of other factors present.

There are plenty of tour players with over 12* of launch.  Here are just a few:

Edited February 12, 2020 by ncates00

[Adam C]

38 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

That's slightly overstated/generalized.  The optimal launch angle for a player depends on other factors too, e.g., angle of attack, backspin, dynamic loft, and the player's desired trajectory (carry v. total).  A tour player who is only around 165 mph of ball speed and 12* of launch theoretically is not optimizing their driver as there are faster players with higher launch than 12*.  Again, one must look at the totality of the circumstances of other factors present.

There are plenty of tour players with over 12* of launch.  Here are just a few:

You need to pay attention to what I said first off. I said for distance and control, not just talking about pure distance. Yes, I see you found some LM data with players hitting individual drives (not averages) way up in the air with minimal spin. That is all good and fine when you are down wind or play golf in Palm Springs. However most players don't want to always hit it high, especially better ones.

By the way, feel free to check out the tour averages for players, you will see I am correct with my numbers.

[jmanbooyaa]

Perhaps look into a new shaft. You can find one to fit the r11s online. Could be a cheap experiment and may work out.  I think that model uses the the fct. 

[ncates00]

2 hours ago, Adam C said:

You need to pay attention to what I said first off. I said for distance and control, not just talking about pure distance. Yes, I see you found some LM data with players hitting individual drives (not averages) way up in the air with minimal spin. That is all good and fine when you are down wind or play golf in Palm Springs. However most players don't want to always hit it high, especially better ones.

By the way, feel free to check out the tour averages for players, you will see I am correct with my numbers.

I did. However, you are ignoring a lot of variables in pursuit of prescribing some meaningless one size fits all launch angle. It’s more nuanced than that and you should know better.  And If you’re going to talk about wind, you’re off base yet again. @iacas and others have talked about a normal drive being the play more often than not into the wind. After all, driver has the most ball speed and the least spin to cut through the wind better. Check the forum for info on that. It’s pretty intuitive though. 

My problem again is just you’re over generalizing without any thought to other variables in delivering the golf club. 

[Rippy_72]

14 hours ago, jmanbooyaa said:

Perhaps look into a new shaft. You can find one to fit the r11s online. Could be a cheap experiment and may work out.  I think that model uses the the fct. 

Thank you very much, I didn't think of that.  The shafts just screw in.  Good idea. That is what I am going to try.  Not a lot of risk that way.   The more I think about it, the less confident I am in the fitting.  I am going to look on fleebay for a Graphite Designs AD-DI 6S or maybe 7S or maybe AD-IZ.

I think what might be going on, the COR on the sweet spot probably is better on the R11S compared to the Cobra but the shafts demo'd on the Cobra are much "better" than the Diaman Kali S flex 70 grams that I have on the R11S.  It is also possible that the instruments are inaccurate.  I was told my smash was 1.52 on the best shots,  I hand calculated taking ball speed divided by clubspeed. Maybe I got a R11S clubhead that is just right up to the 0.830 COR limit.  Normal process variability that Taylormade now smartly adjusts right up to the limit on the M6.  I have always, always focused on solid strikes and have always used a high tee off the left toe, striking on the upswing.  Anyways.  The only two advantages that I see with a new head would be more forgiveness on off center hits and possibly better aerodynamics.  The R11S head is not sleek.  It could be draggy aerodynamic wise...?

I rarely lose a ball off the tee and driving has always been my strength.  I had always used 6 degree or 7.5 degree drivers years ago with an angle of attack around +5 degrees.  IIRC, during my six days with Jim Mclean in my late 40's, my driver spin was around 1800-2200 with a 13 degree launch off a 7.5 degree headed driver.  Carry distance was 320 with optimal smash factor per Jim, but would not let me hit driver if others were at the far end of the range.  A few years earlier in my mid 40's, I had balls speed measured at 190-195 mph in Clementon, NJ. So, the smash factors told to me by the fitter are not a surprise except that the old head wasn't no slouch so to speak.  I was expecting the new stuff to be hot, but it was not.  Also, 2-3 hits per club isn't statistically valid.    Really need 20-30 of each.

I can tell that my old driver does not launch like it used to, so, I don't know how much of that is me and how much of it is the club fit.  Now that I am  older and have a screwed up neck (lower back is totally fine), I am just trying to get 10-20 more yards because there is a huge difference getting it very close to a long par 5 in two and being 30-50 yards back.  Maybe going from 44.75 to 46 with a more modern shaft and better matched to a slower speed might get me 10 more yards.  I am less a bit than 40% chances to make birdie from 30-50 yards but if I get it to chipping range or into the front bunker, I am closer to 70% up and down overall.  3-7 yards for $7-800 isn't worth it to me, especially if it looks like the shaft is the one making the difference.  But, 10+ yards would be worth it.

I probably expected too much from a $325 fitting.  The iron shafts are completely wrong.  he wants me to hit it for 2 weeks.  I could tell in 10 balls it was wrong and 300+ balls later, they still balloon and still have 30 yards of hook on a 6 iron....no thanks.   I thought the driver would have found a more appropriate head and shaft.  Maybe shaftlab load values are too simplistic. Maybe I am impatient.

Thank you to all for the advice.  I have done some some reading, I think I better understand some of this better now.  I am just going to softstep my KBS 130 X shafted irons and bottom feed ebay for a driver shaft until I find one that I like.

 

[Adam C]

12 hours ago, ncates00 said:

I did. However, you are ignoring a lot of variables in pursuit of prescribing some meaningless one size fits all launch angle. It’s more nuanced than that and you should know better.  And If you’re going to talk about wind, you’re off base yet again. @iacas and others have talked about a normal drive being the play more often than not into the wind. After all, driver has the most ball speed and the least spin to cut through the wind better. Check the forum for info on that. It’s pretty intuitive though. 

My problem again is just you’re over generalizing without any thought to other variables in delivering the golf club. 

This isn't one size fits all. This is understanding what kind of golfer we are talking about here. Clearly a good player with plenty of speed to burn. Find me a single fitter out in the world who would be happy with those launch and spin numbers based on his speed (even factor in his AoA if you are wanting to be more "precise") and I will show you a bad fitter. Just look at his old driver numbers, those were really solid. Then jumps into the new driver and numbers jump way up. Obviously something is not where it should be, and the best place to start would be with lofting down that new driver.

[Adam C]

28 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Thank you very much, I didn't think of that.  The shafts just screw in.  Good idea. That is what I am going to try.  Not a lot of risk that way.   The more I think about it, the less confident I am in the fitting.  I am going to look on fleebay for a Graphite Designs AD-DI 6S or maybe 7S or maybe AD-IZ.

I think what might be going on, the COR on the sweet spot probably is better on the R11S compared to the Cobra but the shafts demo'd on the Cobra are much "better" than the Diaman Kali S flex 70 grams that I have on the R11S.  It is also possible that the instruments are inaccurate.  I was told my smash was 1.52 on the best shots,  I hand calculated taking ball speed divided by clubspeed. Maybe I got a R11S clubhead that is just right up to the 0.830 COR limit.  Normal process variability that Taylormade now smartly adjusts right up to the limit on the M6.  I have always, always focused on solid strikes and have always used a high tee off the left toe, striking on the upswing.  Anyways.  The only two advantages that I see with a new head would be more forgiveness on off center hits and possibly better aerodynamics.  The R11S head is not sleek.  It could be draggy aerodynamic wise...?

I rarely lose a ball off the tee and driving has always been my strength.  I had always used 6 degree or 7.5 degree drivers years ago with an angle of attack around +5 degrees.  IIRC, during my six days with Jim Mclean in my late 40's, my driver spin was around 1800-2200 with a 13 degree launch off a 7.5 degree headed driver.  Carry distance was 320 with optimal smash factor per Jim, but would not let me hit driver if others were at the far end of the range.  A few years earlier in my mid 40's, I had balls speed measured at 190-195 mph in Clementon, NJ. So, the smash factors told to me by the fitter are not a surprise except that the old head wasn't no slouch so to speak.  I was expecting the new stuff to be hot, but it was not.  Also, 2-3 hits per club isn't statistically valid.    Really need 20-30 of each.

I can tell that my old driver does not launch like it used to, so, I don't know how much of that is me and how much of it is the club fit.  Now that I am  older and have a screwed up neck (lower back is totally fine), I am just trying to get 10-20 more yards because there is a huge difference getting it very close to a long par 5 in two and being 30-50 yards back.  Maybe going from 44.75 to 46 with a more modern shaft and better matched to a slower speed might get me 10 more yards.  I am less a bit than 40% chances to make birdie from 30-50 yards but if I get it to chipping range or into the front bunker, I am closer to 70% up and down overall.  3-7 yards for $7-800 isn't worth it to me, especially if it looks like the shaft is the one making the difference.  But, 10+ yards would be worth it.

I probably expected too much from a $325 fitting.  The iron shafts are completely wrong.  he wants me to hit it for 2 weeks.  I could tell in 10 balls it was wrong and 300+ balls later, they still balloon and still have 30 yards of hook on a 6 iron....no thanks.   I thought the driver would have found a more appropriate head and shaft.  Maybe shaftlab load values are too simplistic. Maybe I am impatient.

Thank you to all for the advice.  I have done some some reading, I think I better understand some of this better now.  I am just going to softstep my KBS 130 X shafted irons and bottom feed ebay for a driver shaft until I find one that I like.

 

It is also possible that your current driver is no longer "conforming". If the face was pretty hot to start with, after this much time and many strikes at your speed, the face may now be above the COR limit.

Also just as a point of reference, that R11S head usually spins much more than a new driver of today. The fact that you saw the opposite tells me either the loft needs to go down or you need to look at a different current driver to see what you might be missing.

I don't think you are going to get much of a change out of just a shaft switch unless, you go with a different weight, or go longer to increase club head speed. And I would be worried that your contact may suffer if you go that route. Even if those numbers seem overly generous, its obvious that you make solid contact right now.

[ncates00]

37 minutes ago, Adam C said:

This isn't one size fits all.

Any time you push for a specific metric without consideration of other factors, that is the very definition of "one size fits all."  You have made a blanket over-generalization that this guy should go with 12* of launch based upon your view of ball speed and what some tour players do.  Sounds like one size fits all to me.

 

37 minutes ago, Adam C said:

This is understanding what kind of golfer we are talking about here.

A better understanding is one that looks at all delivery metrics, not just what you think is the best launch angle.  You are essentially basing your assumption off 2 metrics and that is all--ball speed and launch angle.  There are other factors.  You are not basing things off some deep understanding when that takes place.

 

39 minutes ago, Adam C said:

Clearly a good player with plenty of speed to burn.

Agreed.

 

39 minutes ago, Adam C said:

Find me a single fitter out in the world who would be happy with those launch and spin numbers based on his speed (even factor in his AoA if you are wanting to be more "precise") and I will show you a bad fitter.

Agreed, however, not everything is in a vacuum.  Certainly up to 3k spin on a driver is not optimal.  Maybe he needs to work on his delivery.  Lowering launch angle isn't the only route here.  You're not tackling the root of the problem by merely saying  go with 12* of launch!

 

40 minutes ago, Adam C said:

Just look at his old driver numbers, those were really solid. Then jumps into the new driver and numbers jump way up. Obviously something is not where it should be, and the best place to start would be with lofting down that new driver.

Maybe that is a good place to start, but maybe not.  We need to see more.  The guy said he wants lower spin.  Lower spin and higher launch would work for him.  I'm not saying he should go sub-2k spin; he could do well with 2000-2200 as he said he wanted.  But again, you are incorrect to assume the only important data points here are ball speed and 12* launch angle. The higher launch angle with the lower spin can keep the ball around 40* descent angle so as not to balloon up in wind (see posts on here again about normal driving being the play into the wind most of the time).  Your suggestion of just change launch angle and do nothing to spin doesn't help him--you're advocating for a low riser flight, when he probably needs the penetrating rainbow flight of high launch/lower spin.

[Adam C]

2 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Any time you push for a specific metric without consideration of other factors, that is the very definition of "one size fits all."  You have made a blanket over-generalization that this guy should go with 12* of launch based upon your view of ball speed and what some tour players do.  Sounds like one size fits all to me.

 

A better understanding is one that looks at all delivery metrics, not just what you think is the best launch angle.  You are essentially basing your assumption off 2 metrics and that is all--ball speed and launch angle.  There are other factors.  You are not basing things off some deep understanding when that takes place.

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed, however, not everything is in a vacuum.  Certainly up to 3k spin on a driver is not optimal.  Maybe he needs to work on his delivery.  Lowering launch angle isn't the only route here.  You're not tackling the root of the problem by merely saying  go with 12* of launch!

 

Maybe that is a good place to start, but maybe not.  We need to see more.  The guy said he wants lower spin.  Lower spin and higher launch would work for him.  I'm not saying he should go sub-2k spin; he could do well with 2000-2200 as he said he wanted.  But again, you are incorrect to assume the only important data points here are ball speed and 12* launch angle. The higher launch angle with the lower spin can keep the ball around 40* descent angle so as not to balloon up in wind (see posts on here again about normal driving being the play into the wind most of the time).  Your suggestion of just change launch angle and do nothing to spin doesn't help him--you're advocating for a low riser flight, when he probably needs the penetrating rainbow flight of high launch/lower spin.

I'm done. I will let the OP, or any other readers for that matter, decide for themselves if they want to consider my opinions on this.

[Rippy_72]

Just wanted to thank everyone for giving so much time and effort and thought to my first world problem.  Honestly.  Thank you all.

I am an engineer, so, I appreciate that this is complicated and that all of these factors and variables interplay and the relationships change from player to player based upon a lot of factors.  I don't know intuitively what those should be and how they interplay.  I do know what a good flight looks like.  You don't see it often at a county course, LOL.  

I don't understand why 10.5 degree head was used during shaft testing.  I asked and was told that the first thing is finding the right shaft.  Then, it is the job of the fitter to put the right head loft on during the second fitting.  He wanted me to have an angle of attack 1-2 degrees although I told him I like more around 5-6 degrees.  I am guessing his preference was a launch of 10.5 + 2 = 12.5 degrees.  Mine was 9 + 6 = 15 degrees with low spin (2000-2200 or something).  9-6 = 3 degrees and this inherently will spin less and give a higher squish factor.  I don't have the equations off  the top of my head but this is just the way it works, if one has the club speed.  This kind of launch will run well and is also decent into the wind, it won't balloon.  I played a good amount in windy conditions and lower spin rates help or at least they did for me.  It is possible that my now lower clubhead speed justifies or requires a slightly higher spin.