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T400 Lofts?


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Ok...just came back from my office/reading room (the one with the TP in it...), and now I just have to ask:  If most Drivers, Fairway Woods,  and Hybrids are numbered based solely on lofts and normally have the lofts explicitly labeled (even the adjustable clubs and most Wedges), then why would anyone consider numbering the 1 thru 9 irons based on anything but lofts?  The launch angle of game improvement woods/hybrids has absolutely nothing to do with their numbering, and is one of the selling points the manufacturers use to differentiate their clubs from competitors.  Why would the launch angle of a particular iron be even relevant to its number?

It is ridiculous for a club manufacturer to have a single club, a 7 iron in our example, that ranges in loft from 26 to 35 degrees!  If the standard change in loft between consecutively numbered clubs is ~4 degrees, then why on Earth would any company have a 9 degree range for different models of their own 7 irons?  That is a 2 club differential!  If you want to talk about Truth in advertising or helping people New to the game of golf, then engrave the loft in the sole of the club like the Fort Worth/Hogan irons did, but also include whatever number the company wishes to designate it as.  "Caveat Emptor: Let the Buyer Beware" versus "Truth in Advertising"...Just Saying...

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8 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

Thanks for the reply. I just don't understand why they don't call this set 3-g/a/whatever. They are using the length of the iron to determine the number instead of the loft. I don't really have a problem with the lofts themselves and I don't think they are too strong for you, rick, and whoever. We have plenty of numbers to value the clubs, but instead of using them, they add w, w2, w3. It's all backwards to me. 

I don't think it matters what they're called.  It's just a point of reference to remind you which club is which.  You could do static lofts, but it doesn't roll off the tongue like "8" for instance.  The numbering system shouldn't mean anything more to you than a quick reference for your "165 club" or whatever. 

And to your other concerns/annoyances about other people laying out and measuring---who cares?  I could care less how far another person's 5i goes.  I only care how far my 5i goes when I need to call on that club and how close I can hit it to my target.  I don't care one bit if a guy brags about how far he hits any of his clubs.  I've got more important things to worry about in my life.  That doesn't mean I'm not competitive with my golf at times, but I'm competitive with my score, not distance.  I'll lose that battle all day--I don't swing fast enough.  I'm generally in that 100-105 mph club head speed and around 150s ball speed with driver.  Not very quick, so I try to work on it, train, and make up for it by hitting my target as best I can.  

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1 hour ago, HoganApexFan said:

My WTH? had to do with the range of lofts for their 7 irons.  Not really understanding how labeling a 26 deg SGI iron with a #6 would negatively impact their brand.

If their testing shows the 26° club launches at 16° instead of 14°, it makes it a 7i and not a 6i.

I agree with you that it probably wouldn’t hurt their brand either way.

1 hour ago, HoganApexFan said:

Would love to hear more about this, as the most recent articles I have read indicate that iron number designation is primarily determined by loft.  That is why iacas' comment regarding launch angle actually caught me completely off guard.  I was aware that the technology in SGI clubs was designed to help with launch angle, stability, etc., but hadn't heard the correlation between that and number designation. 

It’s been a while since I’ve done really in depth research on club design, but the launch angle window is something I remember hearing or reading about from a designer. That’s one of the reasons I don’t bring it up too often these days: I’ve lost the source of the information and I don’t like making statements without being able to back them up.

The basics of it is this: changes in club head design have led to clubs that launch the ball higher and with less spin (lower CoG further back from the face). They found these clubs launched the ball too high for control and accuracy reasons with traditional lofts, so they strengthened the lofts to bring the ballflight down. The additional distance gained was a byproduct of the design process, though now that engineers understand the design aspects better, it’s become something they specifically focus on in development.

Most irons these days are progressively designed. Each individual club head (or set of two-three) is slightly different than another to make the irons work properly as a set.

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I guess I just don't play with people who ask me what club I just hit.

I get people asking me all the time what club I hit, but I hit the ball farther than your average weekend muni golfer, so I take their curiosity as a compliment.

I can’t imagine they ask me for information on their own club selection. Usually people asking about that will ask what distance I played and not what club did I hit and I’ll respond accordingly.

22 minutes ago, HoganApexFan said:

Why would the launch angle of a particular iron be even relevant to its number?

Because thats how the industry determines it? A 7i is the club that launches at 16° with 90 yards of peak height. That may be 32° of static loft in one set or 26° in another.

33 minutes ago, HoganApexFan said:

It is ridiculous for a club manufacturer to have a single club, a 7 iron in our example, that ranges in loft from 26 to 35 degrees!

See above. I’ll bet every one of those 7i hits that window based on their testing.

35 minutes ago, HoganApexFan said:

If the standard change in loft between consecutively numbered clubs is ~4 degrees, then why on Earth would any company have a 9 degree range for different models of their own 7 irons?

What the first half of this statement has to do with the second, I have no idea. The T400 irons have a similar loft progression within the set as the rest of the T-series lineup.

You’re not meant to play a blended set of T100 and T400 clubs so their differences in loft relative to each other mean absolutely nothing.

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Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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27 minutes ago, billchao said:

I get people asking me all the time what club I hit, but I hit the ball farther than your average weekend muni golfer, so I take their curiosity as a compliment.

It doesn't matter if I hit a 5 iron or a 7 iron, I always tell 'em I hit a wedge.

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1 minute ago, Double Mocha Man said:

It doesn't matter if I hit a 5 iron or a 7 iron, I always tell 'em I hit a wedge.

lol! As you twirl the club and toss it back into you bag...

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1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

lol! As you twirl the club and toss it back into you bag...

Exactly!  With a cocky smirk on my face... making sure the 5 iron goes into the wedge compartment in my bag... hoping they don't notice how tall it stands...

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1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

The numbering system shouldn't mean anything more to you than a quick reference for your "165 club" or whatever. 

This.

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1 hour ago, billchao said:

 Usually people asking about that will ask what distance I played and not what club did I hit and I’ll respond accordingly.

This.

58 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

It doesn't matter if I hit a 5 iron or a 7 iron, I always tell 'em I hit a wedge.

According to Arccos my longest Gap Wedge was 171 yards. I'd like to say I can carry a gap wedge 171 yards, but in truth it goes 171 when you hit the ball on its forehead and skull it 60 yards past an elevated green. … oops. I'm pretty sure I had to hit sand wedge back to the green. 

My bag is an ever-changing combination of clubs. 

A mix I am forever tinkering with. 

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1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

lol! As you twirl the club and toss it back into you bag...

No, he tosses it to the ground after he twirls it for his caddy to pick up.

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Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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Just put the lofts of the clubs with no numbers (what Ben Hogan did up until a couple years ago) and call the club whatever the hell you want. 20 degree “oooh that’s a 5-iron.”No, Jimmy it’s a 2-iron” “it’s a 3-iron” said Tom. “Shane, what do you think?” 

Who cares? We’ve been over this before, the Titleist T400 are Ultra Game Improvement irons. Which is why they don’t make an iron longer than a “5-iron” as stated before Static Loft is only one component in the formula. You give me a T400 5-iron I’ll probably hit it 230 yards on average. My Z585 3-iron is 20 degrees and that’s about how far I hit that. I will say this. They are not the first 38-degree PW, 26-degree 7-iron though. The Callaway Epic Stars were stupid strong. In their defense the women’s clubs are stamped 1 club weaker.

What's in Shane's Bag?     

Ball: 2022 :callaway: Chrome Soft Triple Track Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond  H: :callaway: Apex Pro 21 20°I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway: Jaws Raw 50°, 54°, 60° UST Recoil 110 Putter: :odyssey: Tri-Hot 5K Triple Wide 35”

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It's probably been talked over many times, but I would like some help understanding stronger iron lofts that are so common nowadays with major manufacturers. Is this just a ploy to make the average golfer feel like they are hitting it further, or is it a necessary component when creating a particular iron? Does today's technology demand weaker lofts to get a particular iron to work? Please explain this to me in layman's terms so I can understand.

Thomas Gralinski, 2458080

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Quick search of the site for “loft” shows a couple of the more recent threads about this topic.  Start with those (and others):

 

Craig
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Irons: :ping: G400 
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In simple terms, @Billy Z, there are two launch angles:  optimum and sub-optimum.  Club design has favored higher over lower since, at least, the 1970's.  Advancements in manufacturing and metallurgy have exacerbated this trend.  While it is certainly true that some models are aimed at the "more is better" crowd; there is some logic behind lower lofts.  A club that consistently launches too high is no better than a club that consistently launches too low...assuming that the owner/operator is reasonably competent.  

At the end of a round it makes no difference what numbers are stamped on the sole of our clubs.  If you fly the green, with a pitching wedge, and I stick the pin with an 8 iron...guess who is buying the drinks?

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Static loft (the number you see on the spec sheet) is only one ingredient in the launch angle. The vertical CG is so low to reach the optimal launch angle for a 7-iron they have to crank the loft down. It’s one of those things if you change one thing, you have to change another.

What's in Shane's Bag?     

Ball: 2022 :callaway: Chrome Soft Triple Track Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond  H: :callaway: Apex Pro 21 20°I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway: Jaws Raw 50°, 54°, 60° UST Recoil 110 Putter: :odyssey: Tri-Hot 5K Triple Wide 35”

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Ping tinkered with stronger lofts in the 1980s.

Stronger lofts emerged in the 1980s with Ping when Karsten started producing perimeter-weighted irons: the good news was they got the ball up a lot better than blades of the era. The bad news was they flew about a half-club shorter than the blades.

Sensing that golfers didn't want to hit the ball shorter, Ping strengthened the iron lofts about 2 degrees to hold the line against distance loss. But golf marketing went overboard on this, and started the arms race toward the 200-yd. 7 iron.

The last few years, clubhead designs with polymer inserts and flexing faces that launch the ball higher link to stronger lofts, again, to maximize  both launch angle and distance.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, WUTiger said:

Ping tinkered with stronger lofts in the 1980s.

Stronger lofts emerged in the 1980s with Ping when Karsten started producing perimeter-weighted irons: the good news was they got the ball up a lot better than blades of the era. The bad news was they flew about a half-club shorter than the blades.

Sensing that golfers didn't want to hit the ball shorter, Ping strengthened the iron lofts about 2 degrees to hold the line against distance loss. But golf marketing went overboard on this, and started the arms race toward the 200-yd. 7 iron.

The last few years, clubhead designs with polymer inserts and flexing faces that launch the ball higher link to stronger lofts, again, to maximize  both launch angle and distance.

 

 

 

Yeah the Eye2s were traditional lofted. The Eye2+ were a couple degrees stronger the “W” was 50.5° in the Eye2 then 48.5° in the Eye2+. I believe the Zing model had a 47° PW. Now we have some PW that are 38° go figure. It’s just a “10-iron” now as opposed to a wedge.

What's in Shane's Bag?     

Ball: 2022 :callaway: Chrome Soft Triple Track Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond  H: :callaway: Apex Pro 21 20°I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway: Jaws Raw 50°, 54°, 60° UST Recoil 110 Putter: :odyssey: Tri-Hot 5K Triple Wide 35”

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A quick search illuminates:

Loft, upper space within a building, or a large undivided space in a building used principally for storage in business or industry.

Bill - 

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5 hours ago, WUTiger said:

 

The last few years, clubhead designs with polymer inserts and flexing faces that launch the ball higher link to stronger lofts, again, to maximize  both launch angle and distance.

 

 

 

This is exactly why.  Lofts have to be changed to go along with the rest of the tech.

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Note: This thread is 1459 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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