Daily Rules Question II

[Missouri Swede]

4 hours ago, Asheville said:

In stroke play, a player is virtually certain that their tee shot has come to rest in a yellow penalty area. The player properly drops another ball back-on-the-line under the penalty area relief Rule 17. Before playing the dropped ball and within 3 minutes the player finds the original ball outside the penalty area.

Which is correct?

    A.    The original ball is out of play; the player must proceed with the dropped ball with 1 penalty stroke.
    B.    The player must abandon the dropped ball and continue play with the original ball.
    C.    The player may play the original ball or the dropped ball with 1 penalty stroke.
 

We had a whole thread about this topic.  I thought I knew the correct answer, but I think there were better informed people who took the opposite view.

Spoiler

IIRC, it came down to whether the dropped ball was the ball in play as soon as it was dropped even before a stroke was made at it, and whether the dropped ball could be picked up to correct a mistake.

 

[DaveP043]

17 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

We had a whole thread about this topic.  I thought I knew the correct answer, but I think there were better informed people who took the opposite view.

  Reveal hidden contents

IIRC, it came down to whether the dropped ball was the ball in play as soon as it was dropped even before a stroke was made at it, and whether the dropped ball could be picked up to correct a mistake.

 

Thanks for the reminder, I see that I initially answered that one the opposite from how I answered here.  In my defense, this initial question includes specific information that wasn't clear in that previous thread.

[fredf]

The player proceeded correctly under 17.1d(2) when operating with KVC that the ball was in the penalty area. Unless the player was proceeding again from the teeing area (not the case here) that ball was in play once dropped and there is no going back. Subsequent new information - that the original ball is found within time limit and outside the penalty area - is irrelevant. That original ball is now a wrong ball and playing it would get the wrong ball penalty.

Rather perversely, if the player had proceeded to drop back on line thinking 17.1d(2) when the player did not have KVC the original ball was in the penalty area, and then the original is found within time and outside the penalty area, the player could proceed to play the original ball without penalty and either abandon or pick up the dropped ball, courtesy of 14.5b.

[Asheville]

A player hit their tee shot towards a road defined as out of bounds. The player then properly plays a provisional ball. After searching for 1 minute, the player is unable to find the original ball and therefore plays the provisional ball from a location nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be. While walking towards the hole the player then finds the original ball on the course much closer to the hole than expected. The player must:

    A.    Continue play with the provisional ball.
    B.    Continue play with the original ball.
    C.    Continue play with the original ball only if it was found within 3 minutes.
 

[boogielicious]

C. 

[bkuehn1952]

4 hours ago, Asheville said:

A player hit their tee shot towards a road defined as out of bounds. The player then properly plays a provisional ball. After searching for 1 minute, the player is unable to find the original ball and therefore plays the provisional ball from a location nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be. While walking towards the hole the player then finds the original ball on the course much closer to the hole than expected. The player must:

    A.    Continue play with the provisional ball.
    B.    Continue play with the original ball.
    C.    Continue play with the original ball only if it was found within 3 minutes.
 

I will say 

Spoiler

"A" based on how I understood the "old" Rules.  Once one starts to hit the Provisional from a place closer to the hole than where one thought the original ball was lost, the Provisional becomes the ball in play.  The fact that the original ball was found further forward than expected was irrelevant.

Added: Found it - 18.3 c (2)

 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by bkuehn1952

[dennyjones]

4 hours ago, Asheville said:

A player hit their tee shot towards a road defined as out of bounds. The player then properly plays a provisional ball. After searching for 1 minute, the player is unable to find the original ball and therefore plays the provisional ball from a location nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be. While walking towards the hole the player then finds the original ball on the course much closer to the hole than expected. The player must:

    A.    Continue play with the provisional ball.
    B.    Continue play with the original ball.
    C.    Continue play with the original ball only if it was found within 3 minutes.
 

Spoiler

I'm thinking A.   Once the provisional ball is in play it becomes "the" ball.  

 

[Missouri Swede]

5 hours ago, Asheville said:

A player hit their tee shot towards a road defined as out of bounds. The player then properly plays a provisional ball. After searching for 1 minute, the player is unable to find the original ball and therefore plays the provisional ball from a location nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be. While walking towards the hole the player then finds the original ball on the course much closer to the hole than expected. The player must:

    A.    Continue play with the provisional ball.
    B.    Continue play with the original ball.
    C.    Continue play with the original ball only if it was found within 3 minutes.
 

😷:

Spoiler

A.

It’s not the provisional ball after it’s been played nearer the hole than the estimated location of the original ball. It then became the ball in play.  18.3c(2)  

The original ball is no longer in play (even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time or is found nearer the hole than had been estimated) and is now a wrong ball that must not be played

 

53 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

  Hide contents

I'm thinking A.   Once the provisional ball is in play it becomes "the" ball.  

 

Spoiler

I think the point is about when it is in play.  Just taking a second stroke at the provisional doesn’t make it in play. Here, the stroke closer than the estimated location is what makes the difference.

 I’m sure I’ll get corrected if I’ve got this askew (actually, I hope I get corrected if I’m off) by better minds than mine.  Shoot, I’m still confused about yesterday’s question.

 

[fredf]

10 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

😷:

  Reveal hidden contents

A.

It’s not the provisional ball after it’s been played nearer the hole than the estimated location of the original ball. It then became the ball in play.  18.3c(2)  

The original ball is no longer in play (even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time or is found nearer the hole than had been estimated) and is now a wrong ball that must not be played

 

  Hide contents

I think the point is about when it is in play.  Just taking a second stroke at the provisional doesn’t make it in play. Here, the stroke closer than the estimated location is what makes the difference.

 I’m sure I’ll get corrected if I’ve got this askew (actually, I hope I get corrected if I’m off) by better minds than mine.  Shoot, I’m still confused about yesterday’s question.

 

Nothing to correct here, you're on the money.

[Asheville]

A rut made by a tractor is always ground under repair because it is a hole made by the maintenance staff whether or not it is marked as ground under repair.

    A.    True
    B.    False
 

[fredf]

How do I make a hidden reply?

[boogielicious]

55 minutes ago, fredf said:

How do I make a hidden reply?

Use the eyeball icon on the tool bar.

Spoiler

Like this!

 

[bkuehn1952]

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

A rut made by a tractor is always ground under repair because it is a hole made by the maintenance staff whether or not it is marked as ground under repair.

    A.    True
    B.    False
 

Well let's quibble ...

Spoiler

If the rut is in a Penalty Area or Sand Bunker, then the answer is B. False.  If in the General Area, I would say A True.  Now off I go to the Rule Book.

Sigh ... got it wrong.  In the Interpretations area of Definitions ...

Examples of damage that is not ground under repair by default include:

A rut made by a tractor (but the Committee is justified in declaring a deep rut to be ground under repair).

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by bkuehn1952

[dennyjones]

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

A rut made by a tractor is always ground under repair because it is a hole made by the maintenance staff whether or not it is marked as ground under repair.

    A.    True
    B.    False
 

Spoiler

A.  If not, I have a serious talk with the tractor driver!

 

[fredf]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Use the eyeball icon on the tool bar.

  Reveal hidden contents

Like this!

Thanks.

3 hours ago, Asheville said:

A rut made by a tractor is always ground under repair because it is a hole made by the maintenance staff whether or not it is marked as ground under repair.

    A.    True
    B.    False
 

Spoiler

False, Ground Under Repair/1

[Asheville]

Fred, thanks for asking about the hidden thing. 🙂

[Missouri Swede]

5 hours ago, Asheville said:

A rut made by a tractor is always ground under repair because it is a hole made by the maintenance staff whether or not it is marked as ground under repair.

    A.    True
    B.    False
 

This one I looked up before trying to answer, because I knew that there were some “this, but not if” aspect to it (at least in the old rules).

Spoiler

B. False.

The second clause is true.  But evidently a rut isn’t a hole. (Interesting that the Rules use the term “hole” here in a sense different from the two uses mentioned in definition of “hole.”)  The first part is wrong because it’s specified as not GUR unless declared so by the Committee.

A hole made by maintenance staff is ground under repair even when not marked as ground under repair. However, not all damage caused by maintenance staff is ground under repair by default.

Examples of damage that is not ground under repair by default include:

• A rut made by a tractor (but the Committee is justified in declaring a deep rut to be ground under repair).

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Missouri Swede

[fredf]

Always check those Local Rules. Many courses, including mine, have "clearly defined wheel ruts"  or words to that effect, as GUR. And it is on many Hard Cards.