Rules Issues During Competition

[Asheville]

Rules Issues During Competition

1) Don, Mike, and Chuck were paired together in a stroke play event. Don’s tee shot ended up in a spot which, though unmarked, looked to him like it might qualify for relief as ground under repair. Mike agreed, but Chuck argued against it. Since the vote was 2 to 1, over Chuck’s objection, Don took relief and they played on. After the round in the scoring area, Chuck told the Committee member what Don had done. The Committee said what?

A. “Don, you’re fine since two of the three of you agreed with your course of action.”
B. “Don, add two penalty strokes to your score for taking relief when the Rules didn’t allow for it. 
C. “Don and Mike, you are both DQ for agreeing to waive a Rule of Golf.”
D. None of the above.

Spoiler

I’m not certain of the answer myself, though I look to Rules 1 & 9.

2) In Curly and Moe’s usual game all putts “inside the leather” are automatic gimmies. They both happen to be in the same group on Saturday’s play of the club championship, an individual stroke play event. Hoping to speed up the round, though they know better they agree beforehand to apply their “gimmes” rule to today’s play. On the first green Larry, another player in the group learns of their agreement and insists that Curly and Moe abandon their plan and hole out everything. Which of the following statements are correct?

A. Larry saved the day, had he not intervened Curly and Moe would be DQ.
B. The Committee learns what happened on the first green and DQs Curly and Moe.
C. The Committee learns what happened on the first green, but they decide that DQ is too harsh and merely apply the general penalty to both Curly and Moe for the first hole.
D. None of the above.

Spoiler

It’s all there in Rule 1, dig it out for yourself. 

3) In a stroke-play competition, Anne is unsure if the relief area for ground under repair is one club-length or two. Beth, who is Anne’s marker and also a player in the competition, advises Anne that it is two club-lengths and the Anne takes relief by dropping a ball almost two club-lengths from the nearest point of complete relief. Later in the round the Committee becomes aware of this. What is the Committee’s ruling?

A. Both are DQ for agreeing to waive a Rule.
B. Anne receives a two-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place.
C. Anne receives a two-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place and Beth is DQ for accidentally giving incorrect information on the Rules.
D. None of the above.

Spoiler

See Interpretation 1.3b1/2

 

[fredf]

3 hours ago, Asheville said:

Rules Issues During Competition

1) Don, Mike, and Chuck were paired together in a stroke play event. Don’s tee shot ended up in a spot which, though unmarked, looked to him like it might qualify for relief as ground under repair. Mike agreed, but Chuck argued against it. Since the vote was 2 to 1, over Chuck’s objection, Don took relief and they played on. After the round in the scoring area, Chuck told the Committee member what Don had done. The Committee said what?

A. “Don, you’re fine since two of the three of you agreed with your course of action.”
B. “Don, add two penalty strokes to your score for taking relief when the Rules didn’t allow for it. 
C. “Don and Mike, you are both DQ for agreeing to waive a Rule of Golf.”
D. None of the above.

  Hide contents

I’m not certain of the answer myself, though I look to Rules 1 & 9.

2) In Curly and Moe’s usual game all putts “inside the leather” are automatic gimmies. They both happen to be in the same group on Saturday’s play of the club championship, an individual stroke play event. Hoping to speed up the round, though they know better they agree beforehand to apply their “gimmes” rule to today’s play. On the first green Larry, another player in the group learns of their agreement and insists that Curly and Moe abandon their plan and hole out everything. Which of the following statements are correct?

A. Larry saved the day, had he not intervened Curly and Moe would be DQ.
B. The Committee learns what happened on the first green and DQs Curly and Moe.
C. The Committee learns what happened on the first green, but they decide that DQ is too harsh and merely apply the general penalty to both Curly and Moe for the first hole.
D. None of the above.

  Reveal hidden contents

It’s all there in Rule 1, dig it out for yourself. 

3) In a stroke-play competition, Anne is unsure if the relief area for ground under repair is one club-length or two. Beth, who is Anne’s marker and also a player in the competition, advises Anne that it is two club-lengths and the Anne takes relief by dropping a ball almost two club-lengths from the nearest point of complete relief. Later in the round the Committee becomes aware of this. What is the Committee’s ruling?

A. Both are DQ for agreeing to waive a Rule.
B. Anne receives a two-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place.
C. Anne receives a two-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place and Beth is DQ for accidentally giving incorrect information on the Rules.
D. None of the above.

  Reveal hidden contents

See Interpretation 1.3b1/2

 

Spoiler

B cubed.

 

[snapfade]

3 hours ago, Asheville said:

Rules Issues During Competition

1) Don, Mike, and Chuck were paired together in a stroke play event. Don’s tee shot ended up in a spot which, though unmarked, looked to him like it might qualify for relief as ground under repair. Mike agreed, but Chuck argued against it. Since the vote was 2 to 1, over Chuck’s objection, Don took relief and they played on. After the round in the scoring area, Chuck told the Committee member what Don had done. The Committee said what?

A. “Don, you’re fine since two of the three of you agreed with your course of action.”
B. “Don, add two penalty strokes to your score for taking relief when the Rules didn’t allow for it. 
C. “Don and Mike, you are both DQ for agreeing to waive a Rule of Golf.”
D. None of the above.

  Hide contents

I’m not certain of the answer myself, though I look to Rules 1 & 9.

2) In Curly and Moe’s usual game all putts “inside the leather” are automatic gimmies. They both happen to be in the same group on Saturday’s play of the club championship, an individual stroke play event. Hoping to speed up the round, though they know better they agree beforehand to apply their “gimmes” rule to today’s play. On the first green Larry, another player in the group learns of their agreement and insists that Curly and Moe abandon their plan and hole out everything. Which of the following statements are correct?

A. Larry saved the day, had he not intervened Curly and Moe would be DQ.
B. The Committee learns what happened on the first green and DQs Curly and Moe.
C. The Committee learns what happened on the first green, but they decide that DQ is too harsh and merely apply the general penalty to both Curly and Moe for the first hole.
D. None of the above.

  Hide contents

It’s all there in Rule 1, dig it out for yourself. 

3) In a stroke-play competition, Anne is unsure if the relief area for ground under repair is one club-length or two. Beth, who is Anne’s marker and also a player in the competition, advises Anne that it is two club-lengths and the Anne takes relief by dropping a ball almost two club-lengths from the nearest point of complete relief. Later in the round the Committee becomes aware of this. What is the Committee’s ruling?

A. Both are DQ for agreeing to waive a Rule.
B. Anne receives a two-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place.
C. Anne receives a two-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place and Beth is DQ for accidentally giving incorrect information on the Rules.
D. None of the above.

  Hide contents

See Interpretation 1.3b1/2

 

All three of those issues could be resolved with a 50 dollar bill put in the right hand. 

Seriously, I don't always reply to these rules quizes, but I read them and research the answers. I enjoy it, its just growing my knowledge of the game. Thanks.

[bkuehn1952]

I am only confident in my response to #3.  Let's see how it goes ...

Spoiler

1. B.  My thought is they did not agree to waive the Rule but merely applied it incorrectly so only Don breached the Rule.

2. B.  DQ for both since they agreed to waive the Rule and began play.  The fact that they did not actually breach the Rule doesn't save them.

3. B. Every player has the responsibility to know the Rules.  Inadvertently providing incorrect information on the Rules is not a breach.

 

[Club Rat]

I unusually  advise players that "Players are not Rules Official and to proceed playing applying a second ball in play and discuss rules with the Committee." in most situations.

However, since this is a quiz, I'll enter my answers and learn from my answers whether right or wrong.

1. Since the area in question was not marked as GUR, I believe players may agree the area should be deemed GUR when Officials are not present.
2. Both are DQ'ed for waiving a rules.
3. Answer - D Anne would be DQ'ed for playing the ball from the wrong position dropping more than One Club length.
Since she did not correct the drop, she is DQ'ed.

[dennyjones]

Spoiler

B.    If tractor ruts aren't GUR then arbitrarily deciding what is GUR doesn't fly either

B.   They have played the previous day outside the rules of golf:  DQ

B.   The rule is 1 club length.   She dropped in the wrong place.

 

[iacas]

52 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I unusually  advise players that "Players are not Rules Official and to proceed playing applying a second ball in play and discuss rules with the Committee." in most situations.

However, since this is a quiz, I'll enter my answers and learn from my answers whether right or wrong.

1. Since the area in question was not marked as GUR, I believe players may agree the area should be deemed GUR when Officials are not present.
2. Both are DQ'ed for waiving a rules.
3. Answer - D Anne would be DQ'ed for playing the ball from the wrong position dropping more than One Club length.
Since she did not correct the drop, she is DQ'ed.

If you run competitions, I'd advise increasing your rules knowledge, John.

[Club Rat]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

If you run competitions, I'd advise increasing your rules knowledge, John.

I do not run competitions and yes I do need to increase my knowledge.
It is best for all players who play in sanctioned events to learn rules however,
I'll leave the rule officiating to those in charge.

[Asheville]

4) Speaking of playing a “second ball.” What’s the procedure?

A. Before making a stroke at either ball, announce your intention to play a second ball and select which one you wish to count?
B. Hole out both balls?
C. Inform the Committee?
D. All of the above?

Spoiler

Rule 20.1c3

5) In a question in a previous thread, a player was unsure what to do when their ball was moved on the putting green. Now, you might not always be sure either, so what is your “insurance policy”? Sure, know EXACTLY how to play a second ball! How did these players do when playing a second ball?

A. Unsure of the procedure, tapped in the putt then announced that he’d better play a second ball just in case and did so. Later he informed the Committee.
B. Announced his intent to play a second ball and chose one to score with, then tapped in the short one, retrieved it from the hole and replaced the same ball on the other spot and putted out. Later he informed the Committee.
C. Announced his intent to play a second ball and chose one to score with. He then placed another ball on the correct spot for the longer putt and putted out. He then tapped in the original ball. Later he informed the Committee. 

Spoiler

R20.1c3

6) Without saying anything to anyone, a player’s ball comes to rest in an unplayable spot in an area that they believe should be ground under repair, but is not marked. Uncertain what to do and willing to accept the one-stroke penalty if it is not ground under repair, the player decides to use one ball and drop it in the relief area allowed for taking relief from ground under repair and simultaneously in part of the relief area allowed for taking unplayable ball relief for one penalty stroke.

A. Allowed?
B. Not allowed?

Spoiler

Interpretation 20.1c3/7

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Asheville

[fredf]

2 hours ago, Asheville said:

4) Speaking of playing a “second ball.” What’s the procedure?

A. Before making a stroke at either ball, announce your intention to play a second ball and select which one you wish to count?
B. Hole out both balls?
C. Inform the Committee?
D. All of the above?

  Reveal hidden contents

Rule 20.1c3

5) In a question in a previous thread, a player was unsure what to do when their ball was moved on the putting green. Now, you might not always be sure either, so what is your “insurance policy”? Sure, know EXACTLY how to play a second ball! How did these players do when playing a second ball?

A. Unsure of the procedure, tapped in the putt then announced that he’d better play a second ball just in case and did so. Later he informed the Committee.
B. Announced his intent to play a second ball and chose one to score with, then tapped in the short one, retrieved it from the hole and replaced the same ball on the other spot and putted out. Later he informed the Committee.
C. Announced his intent to play a second ball and chose one to score with. He then placed another ball on the correct spot for the longer putt and putted out. He then tapped in the original ball. Later he informed the Committee. 

  Reveal hidden contents

R20.1c3

6) Without saying anything to anyone, a player’s ball comes to rest in an unplayable spot in an area that they believe should be ground under repair, but is not marked. Uncertain what to do and willing to accept the one-stroke penalty if it is not ground under repair, the player decides to use one ball and drop it in the relief area allowed for taking relief from ground under repair and simultaneously in part of the relief area allowed for taking unplayable ball relief for one penalty stroke.

A. Allowed?
B. Not allowed?

  Reveal hidden contents

Interpretation 20.1c3/7

 

Spoiler

4. D

5. C is permitted by 20.1c(3)/4; but, interestingly, I can see no persuasive reason why B is not also permitted, even though there is no such example provided in the Rule/Interpretations

6. A

 

[bkuehn1952]

3 hours ago, Asheville said:

4) Speaking of playing a “second ball.” What’s the procedure?

A. Before making a stroke at either ball, announce your intention to play a second ball and select which one you wish to count?
B. Hole out both balls?
C. Inform the Committee?
D. All of the above?

  Reveal hidden contents

Rule 20.1c3

5) In a question in a previous thread, a player was unsure what to do when their ball was moved on the putting green. Now, you might not always be sure either, so what is your “insurance policy”? Sure, know EXACTLY how to play a second ball! How did these players do when playing a second ball?

A. Unsure of the procedure, tapped in the putt then announced that he’d better play a second ball just in case and did so. Later he informed the Committee.
B. Announced his intent to play a second ball and chose one to score with, then tapped in the short one, retrieved it from the hole and replaced the same ball on the other spot and putted out. Later he informed the Committee.
C. Announced his intent to play a second ball and chose one to score with. He then placed another ball on the correct spot for the longer putt and putted out. He then tapped in the original ball. Later he informed the Committee. 

  Reveal hidden contents

R20.1c3

6) Without saying anything to anyone, a player’s ball comes to rest in an unplayable spot in an area that they believe should be ground under repair, but is not marked. Uncertain what to do and willing to accept the one-stroke penalty if it is not ground under repair, the player decides to use one ball and drop it in the relief area allowed for taking relief from ground under repair and simultaneously in part of the relief area allowed for taking unplayable ball relief for one penalty stroke.

A. Allowed?
B. Not allowed?

  Reveal hidden contents

Interpretation 20.1c3/7

 

Once again, I am only confident about one of the answers (#4).

Spoiler

4. D - All of the Above with the understanding that informing the Committee takes place after the round

5. B - My reasoning is one should play the ball that you hope to use for score first.  If you play the other ball first, you gain some knowledge.  Say for example I claim my ball moved before I try a tricky downhill breaking 5 footer.  If I putt the ball I do not want to score with first, I see the line and speed.

6. B - but darned if I know.

Off to the Rule Book!

Well, #5 B appears to be the right answer but my reasoning was faulty.  And my #6 is not correct based on my reading of the Decisions.

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by bkuehn1952

[Asheville]

5 hours ago, fredf said:

  Hide contents

4. D

5. C is permitted by 20.1c(3)/4; but, interestingly, I can see no persuasive reason why B is not also permitted, even though there is no such example provided in the Rule/Interpretations

6. A

 

I agree, Fred, that there seems to be no objection to B.

I find 20.1c(3)/3 – Player May Lift Original Ball and Drop, Place or Replace It When Playing Two Balls, very interesting, too.

Perhaps, the wiley player, finding his ball with a big lump of mud on it in an unmarked GUR could gain a small benefit. 

4 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Once again, I am only confident about one of the answers (#4).

  Hide contents

4. D - All of the Above with the understanding that informing the Committee takes place after the round

5. B - My reasoning is one should play the ball that you hope to use for score first.  If you play the other ball first, you gain some knowledge.  Say for example I claim my ball moved before I try a tricky downhill breaking 5 footer.  If I putt the ball I do not want to score with first, I see the line and speed.

6. B - but darned if I know.

Off to the Rule Book!

Well, #5 B appears to be the right answer but my reasoning was faulty.  And my #6 is not correct based on my reading of the Decisions.

 

You pose an interesting question. I'm not certain that "informing the Committee" need wait until after the round, say in the scoring area before the scorecard has been returned.

I recall, a few years ago, clearing up a 3-3 during play. I was a referee and member of the Committee on the course when a player stopped me and we settled it there and then. (Hope that was alright! We're way past the statute of limitations for that one anyway.) 

[Asheville]

Erik, how do I avoid the merging of replies. Is there some time limit? 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

Erik, how do I avoid the merging of replies. Is there some time limit? 

Yes. 9-36 minutes.

But merged posts are fine. Especially if you quote.

[fredf]

3 hours ago, Asheville said:

I agree, Fred, that there seems to be no objection to B.

I find 20.1c(3)/3 – Player May Lift Original Ball and Drop, Place or Replace It When Playing Two Balls, very interesting, too.

Perhaps, the wiley player, finding his ball with a big lump of mud on it in an unmarked GUR could gain a small benefit. 

You pose an interesting question. I'm not certain that "informing the Committee" need wait until after the round, say in the scoring area before the scorecard has been returned.

I recall, a few years ago, clearing up a 3-3 during play. I was a referee and member of the Committee on the course when a player stopped me and we settled it there and then. (Hope that was alright! We're way past the statute of limitations for that one anyway.) 

1) There is no timing restriction on when you can 'inform the Committee' beyond 'before returning the scorecard'.

2) Yes, the alert player can certainly avoid playing a muddy ball in a 'playing a second ball' situation. In fact, the player can also put the second ball in play (drop/place depending on the situation) before deciding which ball to count, providing done before making a stroke.

[DrvFrShow]

13 hours ago, Asheville said:

4) Speaking of playing a “second ball.” What’s the procedure?

A. Before making a stroke at either ball, announce your intention to play a second ball and select which one you wish to count?
B. Hole out both balls?
C. Inform the Committee?
D. All of the above?

  Reveal hidden contents

Rule 20.1c3

5) In a question in a previous thread, a player was unsure what to do when their ball was moved on the putting green. Now, you might not always be sure either, so what is your “insurance policy”? Sure, know EXACTLY how to play a second ball! How did these players do when playing a second ball?

A. Unsure of the procedure, tapped in the putt then announced that he’d better play a second ball just in case and did so. Later he informed the Committee.
B. Announced his intent to play a second ball and chose one to score with, then tapped in the short one, retrieved it from the hole and replaced the same ball on the other spot and putted out. Later he informed the Committee.
C. Announced his intent to play a second ball and chose one to score with. He then placed another ball on the correct spot for the longer putt and putted out. He then tapped in the original ball. Later he informed the Committee. 

  Reveal hidden contents

R20.1c3

6) Without saying anything to anyone, a player’s ball comes to rest in an unplayable spot in an area that they believe should be ground under repair, but is not marked. Uncertain what to do and willing to accept the one-stroke penalty if it is not ground under repair, the player decides to use one ball and drop it in the relief area allowed for taking relief from ground under repair and simultaneously in part of the relief area allowed for taking unplayable ball relief for one penalty stroke.

A. Allowed?
B. Not allowed?

  Reveal hidden contents

Interpretation 20.1c3/7

 

Spoiler

4) It's D but you may not get to choose which ball counts. Depending upon the circumstances, the committee can make that choice.

5) C

6) A. Of course it's allowed. The ball struck first counts because you failed to inform anyone of what you were doing.

 

[Asheville]

One last one (I think) in this section:

7) If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. Which of the following are correct?

A. This only applies to match play.
B. In match play, a player may silently disregard a breach of the Rules by their opponent.
C. This only applies to stroke play.
D. In stroke play, a player may silently disregard a breach of the Rules by another player.

Spoiler

R20.1b & R20.1c

8 Which of the following are true?

A. In stroke play, if you don’t know the Rule or procedure, to cover yourself, play a second ball.
B. In stroke play, if you don’t know the Rule or procedure, you and your opponent may agree on a course of action so long as you don’t knowingly agree to ignore a Rule or a penalty.
C. Both A and B are permitted.
D. Neither A or B are true.

Spoiler

R20.1

9) Which of the following are true?

A. In match play, if you don’t know the Rule or procedure, to cover yourself, play a second ball.
B. In match play, if you don’t know the Rule or procedure, you and your opponent may agree on a course of action so long as you don’t knowingly agree to ignore a Rule or a penalty.
C. Both A and B are permitted.
D. Neither A or B are true.

Spoiler

R20.1

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Asheville

[bkuehn1952]

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

One last one (I think) in this section:

7) If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. Which of the following are correct?

A. This only applies to match play.
B. In match play, a player may silently disregard a breach of the Rules by their opponent.
C. This only applies to stroke play.
D. In stroke play, a player may silently disregard a breach of the Rules by another player.

  Reveal hidden contents

R20.1b & R20.1c

8 Which of the following are true?

A. In stroke play, if you don’t know the Rule or procedure, to cover yourself, play a second ball.
B. In stroke play, if you don’t know the Rule or procedure, you and your opponent may agree on a course of action so long as you don’t knowingly agree to ignore a Rule or a penalty.
C. Both A and B are permitted.
D. Neither A or B are true.

  Reveal hidden contents

R20.1

9) Which of the following are true?

A. In match play, if you don’t know the Rule or procedure, to cover yourself, play a second ball.
B. In match play, if you don’t know the Rule or procedure, you and your opponent may agree on a course of action so long as you don’t knowingly agree to ignore a Rule or a penalty.
C. Both A and B are permitted.
D. Neither A or B are true.

  Reveal hidden contents

R20.1

 

I am feeling fairly confident ...

Spoiler

7. B. I know in match play one does not have to make a claim for an opponent's breach.

8. D but I am a little shaky on this choice.  There are some situations in stroke play that do not lend themselves to playing a 2nd ball and I believe the Rules definitely do not want players deciding Rules situations on the fly.

9. B. It was always my understanding that in match play one never plays a 2nd ball.