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(edited)

My wife, who works at a prominent hospital system in the Det Metro area mentioned a few things to me:

UofM AA requires vaccination for students who want to stay in 'student housing'. So is her alma mater Oakland Univ. I don't think it has reached the requirement of all students, just those in their housing complexes. 

https://www.abc12.com/2021/04/24/university-of-michigan-requires-covid-19-vaccination-for-students-who-will-live-on-campus/

We also discussed whether it should be mandatory for folks to get Vaccinated. I tend to think yes, for the sole reason the shot is not just about me, it's about me and everybody else. Only about a third (33.7%) of the residents of Michigan have been fully vaccinated, and 47.3% have had the first of the two shots. Also, at the Beaumont hospital system they are vaccinating walk-ins without appointment.

Also, in Michigan, she said the curve of cases is heading slightly downward, but she did mention the IC unit was very busy today with Covid patients.

 

Edited by iacas
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(edited)
21 minutes ago, Braivo said:

 

So how do you correct for this? Ever increasing levels of rules and restrictions? More mandates? Careful, there's a lot of stupid out there.

You know there are a lot of countries where mandates and restrictions have been welcomed as necessary health precautions. It doesn't mean that people are welcoming tyranny.

Not everyone in the world thinks that it is "dangerous" or "stupid" to impose restrictions which have an obvious benefit to the majority.

What is REALLY stupid is people with very low levels of comprehension and logic to think they know more than people who are experts in their fields.  "Just because you're a world leader in immunology and science you think you're better 'n  me!!! ????"

Can you imagine a debate where some moron who scoffs at "the science" is actually put in a position where they have to defend their ideas to an audience that doesn't consist of people who think the virus isn ot "the flue", a "hoax" or a "plandemic". They would be made to look like the idiots they are because none can successfully defend a single point of their mantra where they somehow think that planting a flag in their front lawn identifies them as "patriots" who believe in "freedom".

" Where's the vaccine? We need a vaccine so we can get back to normal!"......."Vaccine? I'm not takin' no vaccine."  There seem to be millions of these people.

And now I read that in West Virginia they are having to PAY young people $100 to encourage them to take the vaccine!!! Unbelievable.

Of course restrictions and mandates are inconvenient. Of course they change our everyday lives. That's the frickin' point. Short term pain for long term gain. 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Braivo said:

Blindly trusting leaders has never worked out well in the long run.

@saevel25 already replied to this specific bit of nonsense, but I see nobody "blindly trusting leaders" here. It's intellectually dishonest to just put up straw men like this as a means of dismissing the arguments against yours.

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

Wouldn't states without such a rule be seeing more cases and deaths?

It's a multivariate issue, not any ONE thing.

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

Is there scientific evidence that testing and masking soccer players reduces spread? Of course not. It's arbitrary.

"Of course not?" The opposite. Yes, there's plenty of evidence that "testing" and "wearing masks" reduces the spread of the virus.

As for the word "arbitrary…"

Reaction GIF

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

But you can't play outdoor soccer without a mask. It's arbitrary and political.

It sounds like, as people have said to you several times now, it's the league covering their asses. Tell you what: you don't want your kids to play wearing masks, they can choose not to play. Why don't you exercise your personal freedoms by choosing to do that?

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

We could prevent many drunk driving deaths if we required breathalyzers to start the car. Who is in favor of that?

Making up a ridiculous scenario doesn't strengthen your case.

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

At some point the tradeoffs between freedom and safety must be considered.

Yeah, because wearing a mask when you're around others is exactly on the same level as limiting cars to 25 MPH and requiring a breathalyzer to start any car.

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

What is the cost of that?

Thing is, you also don't know how many more people would have died if those kids had gone to school, spread COVID to their teachers, their parents, their grandparents… etc. Do you?

I'm all for being reasonable with restrictions, etc. But at the same time you came in here bitching about your kids having to wear what you called "face diapers" when they get to play soccer.

Here's where it comes down: We draw the line at "reasonable" in different places. And I don't need to be intellectually dishonest to make my case.

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

And I will repeat this, when ANY questioning of authority places you in the extreme anti-vax covid hoax bucket then we are done here. There is zero point in discussing this topic any further. If the only way to participate in this discussion is in agreement with the mainstream and the moderators, then it is futile. 

Thunderous applause for people who agree, and a swarm of criticism for those who do not. 

And now we're playing the victim. You've been around here long enough to know how that goes.

You and @David in FL can agree (except you don't agree, either, entirely). You get to express your opinions, we get to express ours. That's all that's happening. Just because you're in the minority, just because you're intellectually dishonest, doesn't mean you're being abused.

I've seen nobody putting you in the "extreme anti-max COVID hoax bucket." Intellectual dishonesty.

As for @David in FL's arguments about how responsible, vaccinated people should "avoid" certain kinds of people, well, that's just too dumb an argument to waste my time responding.

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Problem is David it’s like having a peeing section of a pool. It is not effective unless we all do it. How can we avoid contact when 40% won’t be responsible for some macho reason. And it’s not like these folks aren’t moving around the country out of sunny Florida, Texas, etc. I’m not feeling virtuous, I am being responsible. You are not.

Oh, Scott, don't waste your time. There's a reason for the "Florida man" memes.

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Wars cause financial and emotional damage too. And yet we follow our leaders guidance there. Safety is all of our responsibility, not just your so-called virtuous types. Did you disregard commanding officer’s orders when you didn’t feel like it? No, you respected the chain of command. Our medical and scientific leaders, which we have placed in these leadership roles, have strongly urged us all to pitch in. And yet you disregard them because you think you are smarter than them.

Bingo.

1 hour ago, Braivo said:

Correct. There is zero point in debating this topic anymore. Everyone has made up their minds and the more we debate the more certain they are that they are correct. Waste of time.

This is not remotely accurate.

I have not made up my mind. I am saying that:

  • I understand some of the science here.
  • I trust that those who do this for a living understand the science of this far better than me.
  • I know that I don't know much about the other costs and tolls this has taken.
  • I understand that the "end" is a slightly moving target, that gets more clear as we continue to advance forward. But even then it won't be one day when everything goes back to normal in a snap of the fingers.
  • I know that I place a good amount of value on a human life, even of those I don't know.
  • I know that 572k+ Americans alone have died because of COVID-19.

My mind isn't made up. Yours may be, but mine isn't.

I'm open minded and continue to gather information. Just because I haven't changed my opinion in awhile here doesn't mean "my mind is made up." Just because your mind is made up doesn't mean everyone else's is.

At least you didn't carry on with your "risk tolerance" nonsense this time.

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(edited)

Royal Oak Beaumont hospital, top 50 in country, is seeing a unique surge in Covid 19 patients, that are younger! I feel this is a direct connection to the efficacy of the vaccines being administered. According to my resource, the IC unit was hopping today with patients. Get your shots, they have proved themselves.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Billy Z
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4 hours ago, Braivo said:

And I will repeat this, when ANY questioning of authority places you in the extreme anti-vax covid hoax bucket then we are done here. There is zero point in discussing this topic any further. If the only way to participate in this discussion is in agreement with the mainstream and the moderators, then it is futile. 

Thunderous applause for people who agree, and a swarm of criticism for those who do not. 

I’ve been a moderator on this website for quite some time and I’ve seen this play before, so I’m telling you now to back away from it. You’re better than that.

You’re outspoken about an unpopular position. Guess what? That means most of the responses are going to be against you.

That has nothing to do with whether or not you can participate in this discussion, which from my seat looks like you’re doing in earnest.

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Idiot smokers complained that their rights were being infringed when they were limited to a section of the restaurant and then kicked out of the restaurant entirely-too.

Thing is-unlike with smoke where people who did not want to inhale that crap-COVID smoke is not visible or something you can smell and COVID smokers often do not even know they are smoking.

Three of my friends or members have died.-Many more have had seriously altered lives. One of my members kids is in the hospital for two weeks-He is in his 20s. So by all means-Please tell me about how wearing a mask to play soccer is SUCH an infringement on your rights.

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6 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

. So by all means-Please tell me about how wearing a mask to play soccer is SUCH an infringement on your rights.

Not an infringement on rights.  Just silly, not very effective in preventing the spread of the virus, and potentially doing more long term harm than good to the kids.

Wear a mask.  Get a vaccine.  Social distance by at least 6’ from anyone you don’t know and you and yours will be safe.  Right?  

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1 hour ago, David in FL said:

Not an infringement on rights.  Just silly, not very effective in preventing the spread of the virus, and potentially doing more long term harm than good to the kids.

Wear a mask.  Get a vaccine.  Social distance by at least 6’ from anyone you don’t know and you and yours will be safe.  Right?  

You're just trolling now. All the first paragraph is utter bullsh*t.  You are either being stunningly ignorant on purpose or just playing a really poor devils advocate. In either case you are displaying selfishness beyond what I imagined you were capable of. I would advise you not to post any more in this thread.

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15 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Your just trolling now. All the first paragraph is utter bullsh*t.  You are either being stunningly ignorant on purpose or just playing a really poor devils advocate. In either case you are displaying selfishness beyond what I imagined you were capable of. I would advise you not to post any more in this thread.

I’m neither.  The fact that you disagree with me doesn’t make it untrue.

The fact that you want someone who disagrees with you to stop posting is disappointing, but I guess not surprising.  So I’ll do so.

 

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Just now, David in FL said:

I’m neither.  The fact that you disagree with me doesn’t make it untrue.

The fact that you want someone who disagrees with you to stop posting is disappointing, but I guess not surprising.  So I’ll do so.

 

Yours are not facts. They are the opinion of the ignorant who reject science and medical facts. They are the opinion of selfish, whiny people who have no respect for the health of their neighbors. They are the opinion of those who don’t care what happens to others as long as they get to do what they want. 

Post all you want but you will be called out every time.

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He suggested you stop posting so you don't continue to come off as poorly as you have. Not because you "disagree." You can't "disagree" with facts.

Goodness.

Another step in the right direction:

775e71bf-5bef-4d0f-ada1-7e584ef0564d-AFP

As of Tuesday, nearly 30% of the U.S. population has been fully vaccinated and more than 42% have received at least one dose, according to CDC data.

 

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3 hours ago, David in FL said:

and potentially doing more long term harm than good to the kids.

I can't say I've read anything about long-term harm from wearing masks.  Its not ideal, and almost certainly overkill, but long term harm?

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2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I can't say I've read anything about long-term harm from wearing masks.  Its not ideal, and almost certainly overkill, but long term harm?

Google Florida City meetings where people just go off the rails about how evil masks are. 

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flying-plane-covid-19-safety-promo-16187

As vaccines become widely available and restrictions are eased, millions of people are flying again, raising questions about just how safe it is now to board a flight.

 

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(edited)

I probably should not write this nowas I am very much emotional.  People are griping about wearing a mask  and in Michigan a large number of hospitalizations are younger and a large number of cases are being tracked to schools.  Wearing a Mask and other minor inconveniences  do not hurt, so why bitch about it?

A friend  is in hospital now with Covid and he was one to ignore mask mandates and said why bother with vaccine, “no worse than the flu.”

His family is coming into town and hoping to see him as he is being given a 10% chance to survive.

This is a horrible way to learn a lesson. 

A minor inconvenience or a life, Why even debate it?

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13 minutes ago, StuM said:

A minor inconvenience or a life, Why even debate it?

Because for many it’s not a debate. They don’t have the capacity to understand this. They don’t have an argument, just an attitude. And they are unwavering. 

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8 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Because for many it’s not a debate. They don’t have the capacity to understand this. They don’t have an argument, just an attitude. And they are unwavering. 

I guess ignorance is bliss, For their sake I hope they do not learn the hard way.

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3 hours ago, StuM said:

I guess ignorance is bliss, For their sake I hope they do not learn the hard way.

The problem is that in their ignorance and abject stupidity, they want to teach others a lesson. Problem is they're basing their "opinion" on nothing other than a contrary mindset which is all bound up in a misconception of the concept of "freedom". And the more information you give them them the more entrenched they become. There have been some horrific role models in very high places of late and for some crazy reason some people persist in thinking it's a good idea to copy them.

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