General COVID-19 Topic

[Double Mocha Man]

4 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

"if you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized....

Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about driving under the influence.

[mattm16]

13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Does it give a business the right to decline to serve them, or decline to employ them, in order to make things safer for its employees and customers?  Does it give a school system to right put the safety of the mass of students above the "right" of the individual?  Will these people accept these types of restrictions as reasonable consequences of their own choices, or will they whine about their freedom being compromised?

Hospitals are filling up with unvaccinated people.  Cases are rising, in a large part because too many people remain unvaccinated.  So we end up with choices by governments, businesses, schools, to limit the freedom we should all have in order to limit the impact of these "personal freedom" actions by the vaccine-averse.   My ability to travel may be limited, I may be required to wear a mask when I'd prefer not to, THOSE people are creating the increase in illness that will effect all of us, vaccinated or not.  THOSE highly "intelligent" highly selfish assholes are causing MY freedom to be restricted.

I can tell you with certain my parents are NOT selfish.  Just because you don't take it doesn't mean you are selfish.  Maybe you are concerned about long term effects.  Maybe you were told not to take it from your doctor.  

[Double Mocha Man]

Just now, mattm16 said:

I can tell you with certain my parents are NOT selfish.  Just because you don't take it doesn't mean you are selfish.  Maybe you are concerned about long term effects.  Maybe you were told not to take it from your doctor.  

Do your parents go out to restaurants, stores, sporting events?  Do they feel that if they're carrying a viral load (which they may not even know they have) that it is okay to infect others?  Sounds a bit selfish to me...

[imsys0042]

10 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

Ok.  What is the long term effect of the vaccine?  In my case, why did the vaccine cause my head pain shot to stop working?  Quotes from people who are not getting it "Imagine a vaccine so safe you have to be threatened to take it for a disease so deadly you have to be tested to know you have it".  "If you have to carry a card in your pocket to gain access for merely shopping or freely moving about then that is no longer a free country....and that should concern everyone regardless of party" and "if you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized.....if all of this is considered necessary to gain your compliance - you can be absolutely certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest"

I know people who have not gotten it.  My parents for one.  Do I think they  are stupid?  No, I don't.

Most effects of vaccines are known within months, not years.  

The selfishness from the quotes you post are simply that just because it's not deadly to you, doesn't mean its not deadly to someone else.  I used to work with someone whose husband was immune compromised.  Why does he have to park it at home all the time because other people are being selfish?

Your "free country" quote can be debunked with two words "drivers license".

Also, your line about bullying can be summed up with "I CAN'T TAKE MY KIDS OUT OR GET BACK TO NORMAL BECAUSE 30% OF PEOPLE WON'T GET A DAMN SHOT THAT HELPS THEM!"   (caps intentional because my kids can't do things because of them)

 

6 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

I can tell you with certain my parents are NOT selfish.  Just because you don't take it doesn't mean you are selfish.  Maybe you are concerned about long term effects.  Maybe you were told not to take it from your doctor.  

No, it's selfish unless a doctor with a sound mind and reason said it was a bad idea.   And I don't mean Dr. Oz either.   A majority of people are taking it and they are sitting back and waiting to see if other people get hurt (they won't!).   That's what most anti-vaxxers are, selfish.   It's ok for YOU to do vaccines to give herd immunity so I don't have to risk my kids (virtually no risk!).   

There is tons of information out there that these vaccines are safe.   Both by how they protect you and by empirical evidence from the hundreds of millions vaccinated.

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

I can tell you with certain my parents are NOT selfish.  Just because you don't take it doesn't mean you are selfish.  Maybe you are concerned about long term effects.  Maybe you were told not to take it from your doctor.  

If they're worried about some nebulous potential for as-yet-undefined long term effects, that's simply being foolish, its ignoring science to this point.  The KNOWN short and long-term effects of getting COVID are far far worse, and far more common, than any known side effects from the vaccine.  Now if there's a specific reason their doctor has advised against the vaccine for them, I have to respect his knowledge.  But they should be willing to mask and distance and do all of the other things appropriate to protect the people around them.  Because they are 10 or 20 times as likely to be infected and transmitting the disease to others as I am.

[mattm16]

12 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Do your parents go out to restaurants, stores, sporting events?  Do they feel that if they're carrying a viral load (which they may not even know they have) that it is okay to infect others?  Sounds a bit selfish to me...

They do not go out that often.  Grocery shopping, golf, etc.  They are not selfish.  When they are asked to wear a mask, they do.  No complaint.  Just stop with the bull, if you don't get the vaccine you are selfish.  So, if a dr tells you not to get it, and you don't, you are selfish?  Stop pressuring people to do it.

14 minutes ago, imsys0042 said:

Most effects of vaccines are known within months, not years.  

The selfishness from the quotes you post are simply that just because it's not deadly to you, doesn't mean its not deadly to someone else.  I used to work with someone whose husband was immune compromised.  Why does he have to park it at home all the time because other people are being selfish?

Your "free country" quote can be debunked with two words "drivers license".

Also, your line about bullying can be summed up with "I CAN'T TAKE MY KIDS OUT OR GET BACK TO NORMAL BECAUSE 30% OF PEOPLE WON'T GET A DAMN SHOT THAT HELPS THEM!"   (caps intentional because my kids can't do things because of them)

 

No, it's selfish unless a doctor with a sound mind and reason said it was a bad idea.   And I don't mean Dr. Oz either.   A majority of people are taking it and they are sitting back and waiting to see if other people get hurt (they won't!).   That's what most anti-vaxxers are, selfish.   It's ok for YOU to do vaccines to give herd immunity so I don't have to risk my kids (virtually no risk!).   

There is tons of information out there that these vaccines are safe.   Both by how they protect you and by empirical evidence from the hundreds of millions vaccinated.

Why can't your kids do anything?  My daughter is in gymnastics, and they have the classes.  T-Ball was on during the summer.  Summer baseball leagues was going.  High school sports were on.  Bowling was on.

[Double Mocha Man]

1 minute ago, mattm16 said:

So, if a dr tells you not to get it, and you don't, you are selfish? 

May I ask you what your parents' valid reasons for not getting vaccinated are?

[mattm16]

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

May I ask you what your parents' valid reasons for not getting vaccinated are?

 

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

May I ask you what your parents' valid reasons for not getting vaccinated are?

Yes you can.  They are hesitant on it.  My mom is more likely to get it, but my Dad doesn't trust the government.  As time goes on they may get it, they might not.  It is their opinion, and choice.  No one should force someone to get it.

[Double Mocha Man]

1 minute ago, mattm16 said:

 

Yes you can.  They are hesitant on it.  My mom is more likely to get it, but my Dad doesn't trust the government.  As time goes on they may get it, they might not.  It is their opinion, and choice.  No one should force someone to get it.

Fair enough.  Since they may be carrying the virus I am curious why they have to be asked to wear a mask rather than just wearing one to make everyone safer...

[imsys0042]

5 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

Why can't your kids do anything?  My daughter is in gymnastics, and they have the classes.  T-Ball was on during the summer.  Summer baseball leagues was going.  High school sports were on.  Bowling was on.

Because we don't want them to get Covid?!  We do outdoor things if not too crowded, scaled back because of Delta.  We don't do indoors activities unless it's other know people following the same protocols.   It's not just for us either.   They were exposed or lightly affected last year when my wife had it (I just got real tired from it).   However having it once does not make you immune (note: still under study but people have gotten it twice.   No final verdict on immunity and length of immunity), and it may not be better the second time.

Plus, and this is the more important reason.   We don't want it to spread.   People not getting the vaccine are slowing/stopping us from getting to the herd immunity levels where you pretty much can relax.  Also, the more unvaccinated, the more places for infection and the more chances a worse variant happens.

These are all serious consequences of not getting to percentages of herd immunity.  I literally think my kids would most likely be ok but I don't want them to spread it to others and continue this.  Given delta they could infect several people in our bubble and then go on from there.

[Darkfrog]

44 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

"Imagine a vaccine so safe you have to be threatened to take it for a disease so deadly you have to be tested to know you have it"

Hyperbolic statements like this just emphasize how dumb the anti-vax stance is.

44 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

"If you have to carry a card in your pocket to gain access for merely shopping or freely moving about then that is no longer a free country....and that should concern everyone regardless of party"

This is another completely silly stance. I have to carry a card in my pocket that allows me to drive a car, make certain age-restricted purchases such as over the counter medications, alcohol, tobacco/marijuana (no, I don't smoke, just an example). The same card allows me to get on a plane, access my bank accounts for in-person banking, sometimes it allows me to make a credit-card transaction if ID is requested. I have to carry a different "card" (passport) to travel internationally. I carry a badge that allows me into my workplace.

44 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

"if you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized.....if all of this is considered necessary to gain your compliance - you can be absolutely certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest"

This is just fake outrage, it is not actually happening.

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

It is their opinion, and choice.  No one should force someone to get it.

Just as no one should be forced to do business or educate or employ those who have made this choice, a choice that makes them more dangerous to the rest of the people around them.

[saevel25]

17 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

I can tell you with certain my parents are NOT selfish.  Just because you don't take it doesn't mean you are selfish.  Maybe you are concerned about long term effects.  Maybe you were told not to take it from your doctor.  

Again, like how smart people can make stupid decisions from time to time. Non-Selfish people can make selfish decisions from time to time. 

26 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

Ok.  What is the long term effect of the vaccine? 

Well, with the largest real world trial for a vaccine, with 167 million Americans being fully vaccinated, there seems to be no long term effects..

It is known that issues with vaccines are known with in the first 6-8 weeks. The vaccine is safe. Think of it this way, most medical long term issues come from long term exposure to something like heavy metals, radiation, toxins. They build up in the body and present months to years down the road. If the vaccines were toxic, we would know vary soon because it is such a small amount of something. 

30 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

In my case, why did the vaccine cause my head pain shot to stop working?

Headaches are a common symptom from the vaccine. Also, shots and headache medication work in different ways. They target different areas to relieve pain or get rid of a headache. For me, Aleve does nothing for headaches, but Bayer will destroy a headache. That being said, maybe the Vaccine introduces a headache that isn't covered by the way your medication is treating the headache. Sometimes medication can be overtaken. Some headaches for me are taken out in 15 minutes after taking Bayer. Sometimes it takes 2-3 hours, at a much higher dosage, to get rid of a headache. There might not be a causation known yet for this situation, but it doesn't mean anything is going wrong with you from the vaccine. 

33 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

Quotes from people who are not getting it "Imagine a vaccine so safe you have to be threatened to take it for a disease so deadly you have to be tested to know you have it".  

This logic is absurd. It doesn't take into the account the person using this logic is disregarding that the vaccine is that safe and it is that effective. Just because people are saying you should get it, doesn't invalidate this. 

The reason why people are being pressured is the following...

1) We do not want more variants to pop up that destroys the hard work people who actually did a good service to stop this virus. 
2) We want things to get back to normal as fast as possible, with minimal interruptions.
3) The vaccine is WAY safer than getting COVID, and HIGHLY effective in protecting people from COVID.
4) When we hear the reasons why people are not getting the vaccine, there is no good reason outside of actually having a pre-existing condition that would make the Vaccine deadly to you. No one has come up with a good reason to not take the vaccine. There is no evidence out there that would validate any excuse that has come up. I am not talking about people who can't take it for medical reasons. That is valid. 

Its a combination of being pissed off at ignorant and idiotic decision making, and knowing its prolonging this way farther than it needs to be taken. 

Imagine you are on a car ride, and the driver is taking the worst road ever taken. Pot holes everywhere. Your head keeps hitting the roof of the car. You can't enjoy the ride at all. All they have to do is take the next exit and you would be on a smooth ride. You keep seeing the driver pass every exit, and you keep looking at that beautiful smooth road that you could be riding on. You just have to think, why the hell is this driver taking the most idiotic way to our destination of ending the pandemic. That is what it is like waiting for the non-vaccinated to get vaccinated. They are in control of this ride, and they are making it the worst ride ever. With no good reason other than they do not like back seat drivers. 

42 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

"if you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized.....if all of this is considered necessary to gain your compliance - you can be absolutely certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest"

Society is built around peer pressure. People are pressured all the time for doing the wrong thing, breaking laws, lying, etc... Growing up, the people around you applied peer pressure all the time, to either do something completely stupid or to stop you from doing a stupid thing. My friends remind me when I do something stupid, which is peer pressure. To think that your list is anything different than how society has been running for centuries is completely wrong. 

Lets switch it to this situation. You have a relative who does hard drugs. So you are saying that because their family would try to persuaded, reminded, pressured, incentivized, coerced, socially shamed isn't for their best interest? 

Also, no one is truly being threatened, punished or criminalized for not getting the vaccine. You can not equate those to having these discussions, or having people around you trying to get you to take the vaccine. 

[mattm16]

18 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Fair enough.  Since they may be carrying the virus I am curious why they have to be asked to wear a mask rather than just wearing one to make everyone safer...

They only wear it when it is advised.  For example, during the summer when the restrictions were lifted they didn’t 

[Sandy Lie]

Some history to read:  

History of Anti-vaccination Movements | History of Vaccines

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Health and medical scholars have described vaccination as one of the top ten achievements of public health in the 20th century.[1] Yet, opposition to vaccination has existed as long as vaccination itself[2] (indeed, the...

 

[Zippo]

34 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

 

Yes you can.  They are hesitant on it.  My mom is more likely to get it, but my Dad doesn't trust the government.  As time goes on they may get it, they might not.  It is their opinion, and choice.  No one should force someone to get it.

Have they read through this site?

/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/images/323361-A_VTF__COVID-19-Branding-armbandage-image.jpg

COVID-19 Vaccination

---

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

Or this site?

Is the COVID-19 Vaccine Safe?

---

Our experts answer some frequently asked questions about vaccine safety.

Do your folks understand that the vaccines were developed by businesses - not by government? Does he understand that "Moderna" is a company, as are "Pfizer" and "Johnson & Johnson"?

I agree that they should not be "forced" to "get it" - but there should be consequences for not "getting it" in the same way that no one "forces" them to drive sober but there are consequences for failing to do so.

[mattm16]

44 minutes ago, Zippo said:

Have they read through this site?

/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/images/323361-A_VTF__COVID-19-Branding-armbandage-image.jpg

COVID-19 Vaccination

---

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

Or this site?

Is the COVID-19 Vaccine Safe?

---

Our experts answer some frequently asked questions about vaccine safety.

Do your folks understand that the vaccines were developed by businesses - not by government? Does he understand that "Moderna" is a company, as are "Pfizer" and "Johnson & Johnson"?

I agree that they should not be "forced" to "get it" - but there should be consequences for not "getting it" in the same way that no one "forces" them to drive sober but there are consequences for failing to do so.

Yes they know the companies developed them.  But, the government is pushing it also.  I really don’t think driving sober and getting the vaccine is the same.  Drive drunk and there is a greater than 98% chance you will hurt/kill yourself or others. 
 

I don’t agree with all these “consequences “.  I just don’t.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

Dude.  Calm down.

I'm perfectly calm. Heart rate is exactly the same as it always is, maybe even a bit less as I'm just typing and not walking around, playing golf, whatever.

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

I'm NOT making things up.

Except you kinda are. You're implying a LOT of stuff.

Here's the thing: try to deal in facts. Not make vague comments about how "some people in the medical field…" as if that means anything.

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

I was quoting what other people have said.

I don't care what other people have said. I care about facts, and you're short on them.

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

I know of people that will NOT get the vaccine.

NO SHIT? FOR REAL?

Dude, I already stipulated to this. We know. C'mon man. Keep up.

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

There are valid questions.

I don't agree they're valid. Just as I don't agree with your implied statements about how those who are vaccinated were just sheep that couldn't think critically on their own.

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

Just because YOU don't find them valid, doesn't mean they are not.

You don't seem to understand the difference between fact and opinion.

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

And, just because they do not want to take the vaccine, does not mean they are stupid.

Not necessarily.

If you're allergic to polyethylene glycol, you probably shouldn't get the vaccine.

Most other people, though, I think are either selfish, stupid, or both if they don't get it. And… I get to think that, because it's my opinion, and it's based on a whole lotta understanding of the science behind vaccinations, a sense of duty and service and society, and a whole lot more.

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

People can (and will) disagree, but that does not give you the right to call them names.

I already have the right to do just that. I don't need your permission to do that. Hell, I have more of a right to do that here than you do.

2 hours ago, mattm16 said:

Ok.  What is the long term effect of the vaccine?

There are none. This is something that anti-vaxxer types hide behind. There's no vaccine left in you after a week or two. We measure "long-term" effects of a vaccine in days or weeks, not months or years.

2 hours ago, mattm16 said:

In my case, why did the vaccine cause my head pain shot to stop working?

You don't know that it did.

2 hours ago, mattm16 said:

Quotes from people who are not getting it "Imagine a vaccine so safe you have to be threatened to take it for a disease so deadly you have to be tested to know you have it". 

Please stop quoting random idiots. That "quote" is entirely stupid.

And that sentence doesn't even f***ing make sense. They basically test for EVERY disease to make sure you have it, so they can make sure to apply the best treatments available at that time.

2 hours ago, mattm16 said:

"If you have to carry a card in your pocket to gain access for merely shopping or freely moving about then that is no longer a free country....and that should concern everyone regardless of party"

Freedom has never included the right to cause harm to others.

2 hours ago, mattm16 said:

"if you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized.....if all of this is considered necessary to gain your compliance - you can be absolutely certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest"

Or maybe, you're just really f***ing dumb.

Maybe they are.

2 hours ago, mattm16 said:

I can tell you with certain my parents are NOT selfish.

1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

Stop pressuring people to do it.

Nah.

You know how to stop people pressuring to get the vaccine? When virtually everyone gets the vaccine.

1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

Why can't your kids do anything?  My daughter is in gymnastics, and they have the classes.  T-Ball was on during the summer.  Summer baseball leagues was going.  High school sports were on.  Bowling was on.

Are you aware of the news lately? You do realize that the situation we're in today is different than the situation even on July 10, right?

9 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

Drive drunk and there is a greater than 98% chance you will hurt/kill yourself or others. 

Ummmmm…

3 hours ago, mattm16 said:

I'm NOT making things up.

Post elsewhere on the site, man. This is a golf forum first and foremost.

And let's be clear about this: that's not a gentle request. That's a rule.

And it's the same for all: if anyone is ever ONLY posting here, as you are, then we make the same request of them, regardless of which "side" they're on.