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10 minutes ago, djake said:

Then you shouldn't go into a hospital.  They recirculate air and pretty much always have been, same with airplanes.  But I trust their air filtration systems.

I am not worried about being on an airplane or in a hospital and have been since March 11th, those were NYC then and I have been multiple hospitals in So Cal as well.

I mask up and wash my hands constantly but then again since I have been working in hospitals all over the country for years I always watch touch points and wash non stop.  

There are a lot more scary bugs you can catch in a hospital then COVID.  That doesn't mean I have a cavalier attitude towards COVID, I respect this virus and I tell people before I see them when and where I have been so they can tell me if we should stay apart or not.  I am very clear that I respect their decision either way.  

I spent most of the summer away from my 82 year old Mother and my 80 year old in-laws.  Just because of travel for work.

I have a fear of both hospitals and airplanes.

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17 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

Has there been a super-spreader type event that was held outside?

I'm assuming that's tongue-in-cheek, that no one really questions whether those have occurred.

Name them. Your list below doesn't really do that. It just says "football games" and "weddings" and things.

I hadn't gone searching specifically for this before today, but I also haven't heard of any super-spreader events held entirely outdoors.

barrett-garden-party-kb-main-201005_193f

Superspreader events can lead to dozens or hundreds of COVID-19 cases. Experts explain what the biggest risk factors are.
Quote

Was Amy Coney Barrett's Supreme Court nomination ceremony at the White House on Sept. 26 a superspreader event?

With at least nine people associated with the event testing positive for the coronavirus, including President Donald Trump, many are asking if the lack of masks and the indoor portion of the ceremony allowed the virus to spread more effectively. Other superspreader events over the past few months have included crowded college parties, weddings, family parties and busy bars.

file-20201008-20-13opw8r.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.

The outdoors is less risky than an enclosed room, but it isn't a COVID-19-free zone. Here's what you need to know.
Quote

At least one study, not yet peer reviewed, found COVID-19 patients were nearly 20 times more likely to have been infected indoors than outdoors.

Look, even if there were none (super spreader events entirely outside), I'm not saying "being outdoors is 100% safe." I'm just asking a question. Trying to gain some knowledge here. This is not me arguing a point, and is separate from (but related to) the DMM stuff.

17 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

Of course there's been a lot of outside Super Spreader events, like the Harley Rally in Spearfish

1800x1200_coronavirus_sturgis_motorcycle

A new study says that the recent bike rally in Sturgis is linked to 260,000 cases of COVID, but South Dakota officials don't agree.

There's disagreement over that one, and was the bike rally outside, or did the bikers stay in hotels, go in bars and drink and eat together, etc.?

17 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

football games

Do you have a specific example?

17 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

college parties, weddings and social gatherings, Mega-Church events

Indoors.

17 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

protests

Be specific. A quick search on that gave me this:

Quote

Not all large gatherings are superspreading events, Sabia says. In previous reports, Sabia and his colleagues researched the effects of President Trump's Tulsa, OK, indoor rally on June 20 and Black Lives Matter protests in 315 cities, and they did not find increases in COVID-19 cases related to either.

17 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

And lets not forget that event on the South Lawn introducing Amy Coney Barrett . . . and other White House events.

Big indoor portion to that one, and nine people were later positive after that.

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33 minutes ago, iacas said:

Look, even if there were none (super spreader events entirely outside), I'm not saying "being outdoors is 100% safe." I'm just asking a question. Trying to gain some knowledge here. This is not me arguing a point, and is separate from (but related to) the DMM stuff.

This is the right question. And, as most of us know, the answer is that we don't know. While it's abundantly clear that being outdoors is safer than being indoors, we don't know exactly why or how much. The majority of scientists think it's a lot safer, but they're not sure.

Science outside the laboratory is hard. Very, very hard. There are so many variables, and almost no way to control for them. Every outdoor (and indoor for that matter) event is different. The number of people, the circulation, the strain of virus, the number of people wearing masks, etc. ad nauseam.

The only think that frustrates me more than Covid-deniers are those that use the limits, and sometimes backtracking, of science as fodder to spread disinformation.

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I can't argue a "super-spreader", for that I have no knowledge.   Our best friends, both in their 70 were attending an outdoor church get together with about 25 people.   They visited multiple times w/o incident.   The last time they went they decided to hold the meeting indoor because of the colder temperatures.   Of the 25 that attended, all 25 came down with Covid-19 and our friends spent time in the ER.   

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14 hours ago, djake said:

Who says "My guy lost"?  

I don't get upset over Presidential elections and feel as I stated, this is a States Rights issue and it is up to the Governors' of each State to set what should or should not be done regarding COVID. 

Any President - REGARDLESS of political party - is 1,000,000% outside of their Constitutional Right to force any type of power over the people.  It will get struck down in the Supreme Court and THAT would DRASTICALLY limit Congress in moving new laws or each State's Governor to set and enforce any regulations.  

You need to understand the Constitution or at least understand The Power of The People in getting the Constitution upheld.

The President does not have the authority to place a National Interstate Travel Ban on US Citizens and the President does not have the authority to place a National Mask Mandate on US Citizens.  

I hope you had a great Thanksgiving, I traveled to another state by plane, ate in a restaurant, played golf, went to a Wedding and had an exhausting Thanksgiving weekend. 

Please avoid politics.

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11 hours ago, dennyjones said:

I can't argue a "super-spreader", for that I have no knowledge.   Our best friends, both in their 70 were attending an outdoor church get together with about 25 people.   They visited multiple times w/o incident.   The last time they went they decided to hold the meeting indoor because of the colder temperatures.   Of the 25 that attended, all 25 came down with Covid-19 and our friends spent time in the ER.   

I trust your friends have recovered and have no side effects.

I decided early on not to get any covid 19 medical info from other than my health authority. So far , my wife and I have not been knowingly infected. We are both over 60 and in reasonable health. We were able to golf this season and felt safe. Our city did a good job of forcing social distance around the clubhouse. 

Others have not. Numbers are exploding in our city and hospitals are now getting infected to the point its effecting hospital service for our existing needs.

10 deaths a day. Most over 50. 

Our latest city protest, around 250, parading to city hall, rallying against mask use. News footage has them hugging and packed tight together. Their basic chant "nobody is going to tell me what to do"

I will not invite people into my home. I don't know where they have been. I'm reducing the opportunity to play covid 19 roulette.

Covid fatigue...yup but you can't legislate stupid.

We are all in this together. Christmas won't make that any easier. Hold the line and hope vaccine availability is soon.

Stay safe folks

 

 

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One thing about the virus . . . it's easy to see where people stand on it.

sadly

feature-homepage-covid-19-advances.png

The primary mode of transmission of SARS-Cov-2 is close contact between persons. Accordingly, there has been a heavy emphasis on effective non-pharmaceutical interventions. Breakdowns in...

More recently, there was a superspreader event at the White House that led to President Trump and several other attendees becoming ill.

However, experts say it’s not just about how many people are present. It’s about how infectious a particular individual’s case might be.

Even a small event, like a family get-together, has the potential to be a superspreader event if a person with a highly contagious case of COVID-19 is present.

Friends_Group_Gathering_Selfie_732x549-t

It doesn’t take a large crowd with hundreds of people to cause a COVID-19 superspreader event. It can happen with small groups as well.

 

Edited by Ole Duffer
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“There are no specific definitions here,” said LaBaer, “but bars, churches, rallies (motorcycle, political, and others), funerals, restaurants, and now, even the White House, have all hosted documented superspreader events that lead to sometimes dozens of individuals getting infected at the same time.”

 

Friends_Group_Gathering_Selfie_732x549-t

It doesn’t take a large crowd with hundreds of people to cause a COVID-19 superspreader event. It can happen with small groups as well.

A problem with COVID-19, and one which is peculiar, not demonstrated during previous infectious outbreaks, is how many people insist on viewing it only through their own eyes.  Of course, we all know why this one is different.

No one argues the common cold, no one argues the flu, no one argued Sars, no one argued polio . . . . .

& there's nothing to be gained by arguing with people like that.  They are not going to change.

It is what it is.

15 hours ago, chspeed said:

The only think that frustrates me more than Covid-deniers are those that use the limits, and sometimes backtracking, of science as fodder to spread disinformation.

👍

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28 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

A problem with COVID-19, and one which is peculiar, not demonstrated during previous infectious outbreaks, is how many people insist on viewing it only through their own eyes.

That is an internet and social media problem. Our sense making organizations are failing us (News, Politicians, in some cases Medical Professionals). Couple that with a lot of misinformation on the internet, people are forming opinions from incorrect data and facts. That is why we are reacting how we are. Before, you would see your neighbor get sick and you believe it. Now, you see your neighbor get sick and you deny it. That is all thanks to our failing institutions and the internet. 

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30 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

One thing about the virus . . . it's easy to see where people stand on it.

sadly

Say what you mean here.

Because you and I were talking about things, and your links include the things we were talking about, and I'd guess you do not know where I stand on this at all.

So, say what you mean to say. And if you're just talking, in general, and your thoughts are about families gathering over Thanksgiving or whatever, that's fine. Completely believable, too. Just doesn't feel like that's what you're hinting at. But, benefit of the doubt - I'm asking you to be clear.

BTW, your link to the White House… I linked to a White House story, too, and that story points out that there was a large indoor component to that event.

I'm only seeking information here. You'd be assuming way too much if you thought you knew what I thought or felt about this.

A problem with COVID-19, and one which is peculiar, not demonstrated during previous infectious outbreaks, is how many people insist on viewing it only through their own eyes.  Of course, we all know why this one is different.

No one argues the common cold, no one argues the flu, no one argued Sars, no one argued polio . . . . .

& there's nothing to be gained by arguing with people like that.  They are not going to change.

It is what it is.

What "previous infectious outbreaks" have we had? I think that's a big part of why this is so different. I'm 42, and I can't think of any. My mom is 70 and she hasn't really had any - she got an MMR shot when she was a kid. It was the kind that left a little circular scar, so it was pretty new, but she hasn't had to live through a period like this, either. It's new to most people.

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I have started wearing Korean made BOTN KF94 masks instead of the surgical masks provided at work (a hospital). They fit and filter better which makes them actually protective of the wearer instead of just protecting others from the wearer. If you buy in bulk they are relatively cheap and they can be used for a week or more at a time. Best practice is to alternate using several of them if you are around a lot of other people frequently.

This guy tests a lot of different masks with a Portacount and offers some recommendations. I have a Portacount at work, but don't have the time nor inclination to try to duplicate what he does, but he seems competent so I trust his data.

 

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9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Say what you mean here.

Because you and I were talking about things, and your links include the things we were talking about, and I'd guess you do not know where I stand on this at all.

So, say what you mean to say. And if you're just talking, in general, and your thoughts are about families gathering over Thanksgiving or whatever, that's fine. Completely believable, too. Just doesn't feel like that's what you're hinting at. But, benefit of the doubt - I'm asking you to be clear.

BTW, your link to the White House… I linked to a White House story, too, and that story points out that there was a large indoor component to that event.

I'm only seeking information here. You'd be assuming way too much if you thought you knew what I thought or felt about this.

What "previous infectious outbreaks" have we had? I think that's a big part of why this is so different. I'm 42, and I can't think of any. My mom is 70 and she hasn't really had any - she got an MMR shot when she was a kid. It was the kind that left a little circular scar, so it was pretty new, but she hasn't had to live through a period like this, either. It's new to most people.

Not that it matters much and I apologize as it's not really on topic but I'm pretty sure it was the Smallpox vaccination that caused the circular scar - not the MMR. I'm old enough to remember getting both vaccinations (among others). There are some explanations and examples here:

Smallpox vaccine scar: Pictures, causes, and more (medicalnewstoday.com)

And, for the on topic portion - I'm one of those who avoids the indoor stuff but am also very leery of the outdoor stuff, too. You won't ever find me in one of those outdoor crowds no matter how low the risk may be. For me, the risk/benefit ratio just doesn't work.

 

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11 minutes ago, iacas said:

What "previous infectious outbreaks" have we had? I think that's a big part of why this is so different. I'm 42, and I can't think of any. My mom is 70 and she hasn't really had any - she got an MMR shot when she was a kid. It was the kind that left a little circular scar, so it was pretty new, but she hasn't had to live through a period like this, either. It's new to most people.

I think this might be regional. Here in NYC, in the past 20 years we had SARS, H1N1 (Swine Flu), Ebola, Zika, and even a Measles outbreak last year. Not to mention the yearly flu outbreaks. Obviously, none were nearly as deadly as Covid-19 (at least in the US), but they all raised awareness, some panic, etc. and made NYC feel, wrongly it turns out, that it was ready for a bigger outbreak.

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1 minute ago, Zippo said:

Not that it matters much and I apologize as it's not really on topic but I'm pretty sure it was the Smallpox vaccination that caused the circular scar - not the MMR.

Yep, yep, sorry. You're totally right. Brain fart on my part - as soon as I read that I facepalmed and thought about how I knew that but just didn't think at all in typing that part out.

The MMR stuff was the 60s, so my mom would have lived through those. But I don't think those were anything near this level, so I think my overall point still stands about how nobody has really lived through something like this to have a history or memory.

3 minutes ago, Zippo said:

outdoor crowds

Oh, to be perfectly clear, I'm not going anywhere near anything you could describe as a "crowd" even if the word "small" is in front of it.

The lines at Best Buy had markers every 10' here in Erie, for example, and my wife and I shop at off-hours so as to avoid even like 20 people in the grocery store.

3 minutes ago, chspeed said:

I think this might be regional. Here in NYC, in the past 20 years we had SARS, H1N1 (Swine Flu), Ebola, Zika, and even a Measles outbreak last year. Not to mention the yearly flu outbreaks. Obviously, none were nearly as deadly as Covid-19 (at least in the US), but they all raised awareness, some panic, etc. and made NYC feel, wrongly it turns out, that it was ready for a bigger outbreak.

Fair enough, but like you even say, I don't think they were anything near or like the level of this particular case. The last one in the U.S. may have been the Spanish Flu stuff. Which I thought just now may have been 1913 (Francis Ouimet), but which was 1918 or so. So, after Eddie and Francis won the U.S. Open together. 🙂

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5 hours ago, uitar9 said:

I trust your friends have recovered and have no side effects.

The thing is; he has COPD and has recovered completely.   She was completely healthy and has still not recovered.   She's dealing with the brain fog issues.  

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I had not ever thought it until this pandemic came along, but both my parents were born in March, 1919.  That means both my grandmothers would have been pregnant with them during the height of the 1918 pandemic, and it still would have been an issue when they were born.

That would have been a scary time.

I think the biggest key to conquering COVID-19 is to stop letting the distractors distract.  Just announce how we're going to conquer it, then do it.

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

That is an internet and social media problem. Our sense making organizations are failing us (News, Politicians, in some cases Medical Professionals). Couple that with a lot of misinformation on the internet, people are forming opinions from incorrect data and facts. That is why we are reacting how we are. Before, you would see your neighbor get sick and you believe it. Now, you see your neighbor get sick and you deny it. That is all thanks to our failing institutions and the internet. 

Agree about the Internet, that it gives some people a voice who should not have one.

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53 minutes ago, Ole Duffer said:

Hospitalizations more than doubled since the beginning of November, and the United States saw more Covid-19 deaths last month than the pandemic's combined death toll in Australia, Canada, China, Japan and Germany, according to data from Johns Hopkins University.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't take the numbers China is providing all that seriously.

Virus_Outbreak_China_10992.jpg

In some instances, the number of deaths reported internally were more than double the figures released to the public

 

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4 hours ago, iacas said:

Say what you mean here.

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P.S. If you want to quote something, link to the original source and put the quote in a quote box, ideally without formatting.

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