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mcanadiens
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Just now, mcanadiens said:

Not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

Same back to you. We fully understand your side; you're just "wrong" about how these things work.

Just now, mcanadiens said:

The bottom line is that no matter how hard I try to get on, or how much time I waste sitting around waiting for a spot to open up, I'm going to get substantially fewer rounds than I paid for.

You didn't pay for a specific set of rounds.

If I pay for a pass to the Erie Zoo, and the lions die or the exhibit is closed for the year for renovation, I don't get a refund. I just have to visit the other areas of the zoo.

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4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Same back to you. We fully understand your side; you're just "wrong" about how these things work.

You didn't pay for a specific set of rounds.

If I pay for a pass to the Erie Zoo, and the lions die or the exhibit is closed for the year for renovation, I don't get a refund. I just have to visit the other areas of the zoo.

There are no other areas of the zoo. 

You want to make that comparison. It's like they sold you a pass to the zoo, advertised lions, bears and hippos along with everything else and then instead of delivering what they advertised, they lined you up in the parking lot to see a bowl of goldfish.

There's a substantial chance these cheats will screw me and there's a substantial chance that there is nothing I can do about it. Doesn't mean that it isn't one of the biggest wastes of money I've suffered in quite awhile.

 

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17 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

There are 24 hours in a day and two golf courses. If they don't issue refunds, every frigging person in the system is going to be trying to play those same two courses. When they have a full tee sheet for a day, nobody else is getting on. 

The bottom line is that no matter how hard I try to get on, or how much time I waste sitting around waiting for a spot to open up, I'm going to get substantially fewer rounds than I paid for.

You are making a lot of assumptions my man. Once they open, I will bet a beer that I can make a tee time. It won't be wide open, but it will be possible.

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6 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't think @mcanadiens has a case. The pass is still valid. They didn't close down every course you can play with the pass.

This is true, but they have been closed for 2 months now and I don't see the city opening Community back up anytime soon. The pass has been useless for these 2 months, and it isn't like they are winter months. I was planning on playing 125-150 rounds with the pass this year. I've got 14 in so far, but with only Community being opened up (hopefully at some point), I doubt I will get 50 rounds in. To me and @mcanadiens we feel like we are getting jipped out of 2/3 of our pass, not only because 2/3 of courses have closed, but we will not be able to get as many rounds in as last year just due to available times.

I would liken it to buying a season pass for something, expecting unlimited use, and then the place saying, "well actually you can't use the pass on 4 days of the week, but thanks for buying it and we hope to see you on the 3 days of the week you are permitted".

What is happening with season ticket holders in other sports? I would assume that some of that money they pay will be reimbursed based on how many games they have missed. How is this golf scenario any different?

Just now, CarlSpackler said:

You are making a lot of assumptions my man. Once they open, I will bet a beer that I can make a tee time. It won't be wide open, but it will be possible.

Can you make one for every day of the week though? Will they allow that? I'm assuming that I can't say to them, I want the 3:50 slot on hills for the rest of the year, every single day. That's how much I had planned on playing with the pass. Obviously weather will make it so that it can't be every day, or the occasional engagement might make me not play, but there is no way that I will get to play every nice available day I have now.

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34 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

There are no other areas of the zoo.

It's a season pass to all the Dayton city courses, no?

If so, then there are other areas of the zoo.

17 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

What is happening with season ticket holders in other sports? I would assume that some of that money they pay will be reimbursed based on how many games they have missed. How is this golf scenario any different?

Not the same thing.

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I don't get to play quite as much as @Bonvivant, so I was expecting 80 rounds this year.

In the most optimistic I can possibly be at this point, maybe I'm able to find 10 rounds at Community (the only part of the zoo now). That's going to require my trying to find someone I can play with just so I can book a tee time.

So, it is a beat down of nearly 70 rounds of golf. Even at buster-ass public golf prices, the math is pretty easy. 70 X 20 = 1,400. 

That isn't in my budget.

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Just now, mcanadiens said:

I don't get to play quite as much as @Bonvivant, so I was expecting 80 rounds this year.

In the most optimistic I can possibly be at this point, maybe I'm able to find 10 rounds at Community (the only part of the zoo now). That's going to require my trying to find someone I can play with just so I can book a tee time.

So, it is a beat down of nearly 70 rounds of golf. Even at buster-ass public golf prices, the math is pretty easy. 70 X 20 = 1,400. 

That isn't in my budget.

During the 2 months of this closure so far I have spend 400 dollars already at other courses. If I do this the rest of the year, I might as well have golfed myself out of house and home.

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23 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I would liken it to buying a season pass for something, expecting unlimited use, and then the place saying, "well actually you can't use the pass on 4 days of the week, but thanks for buying it and we hope to see you on the 3 days of the week you are permitted".

You still have unlimited use, just at a reduced number of courses. You aren't restricted to certain days of the week now, and you don't know for a fact that you won't be able to get tee times as frequently as you want.

25 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

What is happening with season ticket holders in other sports? I would assume that some of that money they pay will be reimbursed based on how many games they have missed. How is this golf scenario any different?

The golf scenario is different because sports seasons are based on a specific number of games, 162 in baseball, 82 in basketball, etc. where your golf pass is not. You might have bought it with the intention to play 120-150 rounds, but that is not what the pass guarantees. Buying season tickets for a sports team guarantees you tickets to every home game, and from what I can tell, having a season pass for the city of Dayton grants you unlimited rounds at the city of Dayton golf courses, NOT a set number of rounds. It would be much different if you bought a pass that was good for exactly 10 rounds of golf at a specific course and you only used 5 rounds and the course closed. 

You keep trying to compare other scenarios to this one when they aren't the same. 

The facts is you paid for a pass which gives you unlimited golf at the city of Dayton courses. Even though some of the courses closed, do you still have the ability to do unlimited golf at the city of Dayton courses? Yes you do. No need for them to give you a refund IMO.

How many rounds you played last year or planned on playing this year has no relevance to whether or not the city should give you a refund Does it suck that you won't get as many rounds in as planned and thus making the pass not as good of a deal for you? Yeah, but again, you didn't pay for a set number of rounds.

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38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

To me and @mcanadiens we feel like we are getting jipped out of 2/3 of our pass, not only because 2/3 of courses have closed, but we will not be able to get as many rounds in as last year just due to available times.

I get it. Years ago when Greene CC closed mid season, I was out a lot of money. I wasn't happy, but I had no recourse. At least you guys have access to some value for your investment. I think the city will do something to make it up to pass holders. I think most sports and other season pass offering organizations will. If they don't, then a lot of people will not renew or return. You will just have to be a little patient.

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2 minutes ago, klineka said:

not as good of a deal for you?

Call it what it is.

A massive golf-related financial ass kicking. 

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2 minutes ago, klineka said:

You still have unlimited use, just at a reduced number of courses. You aren't restricted to certain days of the week now, and you don't know for a fact that you won't be able to get tee times as frequently as you want.

The golf scenario is different because sports seasons are based on a specific number of games, 162 in baseball, 82 in basketball, etc. where your golf pass is not. You might have bought it with the intention to play 120-150 rounds, but that is not what the pass guarantees. Buying season tickets for a sports team guarantees you tickets to every home game, and from what I can tell, having a season pass for the city of Dayton grants you unlimited rounds at the city of Dayton golf courses, NOT a set number of rounds. It would be much different if you bought a pass that was good for exactly 10 rounds of golf at a specific course and you only used 5 rounds and the course closed. 

You keep trying to compare other scenarios to this one when they aren't the same. 

The facts is you paid for a pass which gives you unlimited golf at the city of Dayton courses. Even though some of the courses closed, do you still have the ability to do unlimited golf at the city of Dayton courses? Yes you do. No need for them to give you a refund IMO.

How many rounds you played last year or planned on playing this year has no relevance to whether or not the city should give you a refund Does it suck that you won't get as many rounds in as planned and thus making the pass not as good of a deal for you? Yeah, but again, you didn't pay for a set number of rounds.

The pass was for unlimited play at 6 courses. 4 of them dont exist anymore. 

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34 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I was planning on playing 125-150 rounds with the pass this year. I've got 14 in so far, but with only Community being opened up (hopefully at some point), I doubt I will get 50 rounds in. To me and @mcanadiens we feel like we are getting jipped out of 2/3 of our pass, not only because 2/3 of courses have closed, but we will not be able to get as many rounds in as last year just due to available times.

But you're not getting ripped off, as @mcanadiens seems to be implying. You're simply getting less value out of your pass than you previously anticipated. It's not like you can't golf at all. If they told you ahead of time you were only limited to 50 rounds of golf, would you have not bought the pass?


How much revenue does the city generate from these passes? What kind of financial stress does it put on the remaining courses if they refunded everyone's money?

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Just now, billchao said:

But you're not getting ripped off, as @mcanadiens seems to be implying. You're simply getting less value out of your pass than you previously anticipated. It's not like you can't golf at all. If they told you ahead of time you were only limited to 50 rounds of golf, would you have not bought the pass?


How much revenue does the city generate from these passes? What kind of financial stress does it put on the remaining courses if they refunded everyone's money?

If I was limited to 50 plays, I wouldn't have bought it. If I had prescience and knew that it would only be for 2 of the 6 courses, I wouldn't have bought it. 

It wouldn't put any pressure on Community to refund our money. As soon as they open (if they ever do), they will be raking in the dough like all the other open courses right now. Community has always done well. I'd wager they would actually make more money if they refunded all passes fully, but every round played was full price the rest of the year. The hundreds of people that already have the pass are going to be swarming that course so much that it will be tough to get tee times. 

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12 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

I think the city will do something to make it up to pass holders.

Lemme guess.

Free Community Golf caps. The ones they've had back in storage since 1996.

 

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2 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

If I was limited to 50 plays, I wouldn't have bought it. If I had prescience and knew that it would only be for 2 of the 6 courses, I wouldn't have bought it. 

I know you were asked that question, but again, that's not the same.

Neither you nor @mcanadiens have shown any language that says that six courses would remain open throughout the full year.

2 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

It wouldn't put any pressure on Community to refund our money.

Sure it would.

2 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I'd wager they would actually make more money if they refunded all passes fully, but every round played was full price the rest of the year.

In which case many would have an actual legitimate complaint.

2 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

The hundreds of people that already have the pass are going to be swarming that course so much that it will be tough to get tee times. 

Speculation at this point.


Sucks for you guys. I get that. But you're not likely going to get a refund, nor does Dayton owe you one. To hear you both talk the one course at least in particular has been in danger of closing for years now.

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Just now, iacas said:

Sucks for you guys. I get that. But you're not likely going to get a refund, nor does Dayton owe you one. To hear you both talk the one course at least in particular has been in danger of closing for years now.

One of the 4 that closed was on the chopping block, and I knew that going in to buying my pass. It's a par 3 course, and is a lot of fun, but not maintained well. I got to play it twice this year, and kind of knew that it would be going bye-bye soon.

The other 3 were full length courses with very varied layouts. Basically the mayor just scrapped Dayton golf, and there is no way to even protest because groups of more than 10 aren't allowed. If that wasn't the case, I would be calling every golfer I knew to come down and make a scene. I just hope that she gets voted out, or at least rethinks Dayton golf once this COVID stuff has calmed down (very unlikely).

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Here is a better news article explaining the justification for the closures.

Quote

Because of the revenue loss in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, the city made the decision to stop the subsidies to the courses that were losing money.

"Of the estimated 20,000 individuals that use City golf courses, fewer than 2,500 are Dayton residents. Subsidizing golf operations for less than 2 percent of the city population would not be a prudent course of action at this critical time," said Dayton Mayor Nan Whaley. "For some, this might feel like a loss, but we are committed to making sure that the city’s resources are being used in ways that benefit our residents most, particularly our young people and seniors."

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DAYTON, Ohio (WKEF/WRGT) -- The City of Dayton today announced it is closing two of its golf courses permanently. Dayton Mayor Nan...

 

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16 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

It wouldn't put any pressure on Community to refund our money.

I seriously doubt this.

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

I know you were asked that question, but again, that's not the same.

Yea, it was more a question to gain insight into his perceived value.

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