Playing From the Wrong (Too Long) Tees?

[klineka]

18 minutes ago, rvanculin said:

PS- You can say whatever you want, but if you don't think billchao and Erik were being dismissive and condescending, then you're just being disingenuous. 

Can you share which sentences you think were dismissive and condescending? I just reread the entire topic and I don't see them. 

They disagreed with the original post, but they didn't call anyone names, didn't attack anyone's character, didn't say their opinions were unwelcome, etc.

All they said was that it's not good to make generalized statements and act like those statements are facts based on one singular person's experience. There's nothing dismissive or condescending about that. 

40 minutes ago, rvanculin said:

Everyone has a different experience

Which is precisely why people shouldn't make broad, sweeping generalizations about all golfers based on their own singular experience, which is exactly what happened in the first post of this topic.

[Sandy Lie]

14 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I’m not sure you’re really the one to decide how a player enjoys his/her round. As long as POP is respected maybe a player wants to play the tips for no other reason than wanting to. I play the tips at my course often as it’s good practice for me and I enjoy the changes across the course I get to see. 

I don’t “decide” what tee anyone plays.  POP is mostly respected at Pinehurst. As long as your within the 4 hour 15 minute pace your fine. If not the Marshall speaks to you, Members or Guests alike.  Pinehurst is a “Golf Factory“. By that I mean they churn out rounds of golf and to do so they expect the 4hr 15 min pace.  I actually played with a young kid last summer who played the US Open tees, 7588 yards per the card.  He saw lots of the course most don’t normally see. He hit it far believe me, but as I recall he shot just under 100. But he had fun and a story to tell.

38 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Please don’t put emotions into the text when you are reading other’s posts. We all tend to do that and we feel the posters are condescending or insulting when if you read the text objectively, they are just sharing a different opinion in most cases. Erik certainly wasn’t insulting you. He feels your position on this subject is off base, as do others. Some others agree with you. That is a healthy discussion/debate. 
 

It also helps if you bring data to the discussion. Sometimes our anecdotal experiences don’t match up with data for the general population. 

Appreciate your response. As far as data goes I can’t provide any numbers. I’m sharing my experiences and opinion on what I have observed.  Thanks.

[Vinsk]

On 5/11/2020 at 4:08 PM, Sandy Lie said:

I’ve played with many guests at Pinehurst who play the tips (perhaps for the experience?) who would have a better time play one tee box up

And then you respond with an example that shows this isn’t true.

[JGus]

C'mon folks, the back and forth here is getting a little ridiculous...

It's all fun and games until someone gets stuck behind a group for 5 hours because they're playing the tips and can't hit it past the ladies tee.

I could care less what tee's you play, but when it starts impacting the entire course it's time to make a switch, but people will do what they want to do.  At my course I deal with it every weekend, there are multiple groups that play the tips that have no business playing from there and if you get stuck behind them your in for a long day.  They are not going to change, and my course never heard of rangers/marshals even though they have people driving around in carts that are to scared to say anything to people.

And one last thought, I would say a large number of people don't even know the distance from each tee box, or even consider it when choosing where to play from.  But that's just my thought, or maybe I'm the only one who never does it.

[Sandy Lie]

14 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

And then you respond with an example that shows this isn’t true.

I could also respond with an example of disastrous rounds as well. Late last summer A Grandfather and Grandson played #2. My friend (former college player) and I played along side. The kid played the Blues, grandad the Greens and we played the White tees.  We spent more time looking for the kids ball and the group quickly fell behind.  Now he's trying to play faster to get back to POP and it only made it worse for the kid.  More bad shots than good. Finally moved to the white tees on the back 9 and played better.  Grandad felt better too!

3 minutes ago, JGus said:

C'mon folks, the back and forth here is getting a little ridiculous...

It's all fun and games until someone gets stuck behind a group for 5 hours because they're playing the tips and can't hit it past the ladies tee.

I could care less what tee's you play, but when it starts impacting the entire course it's time to make a switch, but people will do what they want to do.  At my course I deal with it every weekend, there are multiple groups that play the tips that have no business playing from there and if you get stuck behind them your in for a long day.  They are not going to change, and my course never heard of rangers/marshals even though they have people driving around in carts that are to scared to say anything to people.

And one last thought, I would say a large number of people don't even know the distance from each tee box, or even consider it when choosing where to play from.  But that's just my thought, or maybe I'm the only one who never does it.

Go Army! I Served 72-76. Go description on the people during the carts! I’ll share that one.

[Sandy Lie]

...or the 4 young guys who played the tips on #2 four days ago. I was hitting balls on the range and they showed up. Golf buddies on a trip. They were talking $hi+ on the range. Couldn’t help but laugh with them. It was 7:AM and they were hungover as heck.  Thank God I was in front of them!  On the range they hit the ball long, wide and a few wiffs as well.  Off we went. My group was putting out on the 5th hole they were on the 3rd green. Two holes behind. Never saw them after that. They were the second group out.  
 

overall I enjoy playing with Guests. I’ve met some very nice people.  

[Beastie]

I frequently play different tees depending on a variety of factors:- weather, ability of playing partners, time available, change of scene. When I play bucket list courses I’m usually playing with guys who are low single figures or better and we usually play off the tips/ set down from the tips. If I’m paying $300 then I don’t want to be told which tees to play off. 

[CarlSpackler]

I would guess that the groups having trouble keeping pace would have the same problem from any set of tees or even an executive course. As long as someone keeps pace and record the tees they played in GHIN, I don't care what tees they play? A few weeks ago, some guys I got paired with went to the back tees. I thought, "Here we go.", but the first guy pounded one down the middle that ended up 25-30 yards past my good drive from the white tees. The second guy probably would have been better off playing up with me, but he didn't and that's fine. He just had to use longer irons on approach shots, but he did not hold us up. I made a generalization in my head and was wrong.

[Bonvivant]

I don't know how common it is for tees to determine POP. Normally pre-shot routines, lack of provisionals, and poor cart management are what I see slowing things down, or things like writing scores and cleaning clubs green-side, when you cloud be doing it on the next tee while your playing partners are hitting.

[rvanculin]

I have to say that I 100% agree that slow people will be slow no matter where they are playing. I have gotten a lot of people into playing golf, and they all say "You won't want to play with me, I'm no good." I always respond "I don't care how well you play, I care how quick you play."

And I've never heard someone take the blame for being slow, everyone thinks they are quick.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, Sandy Lie said:

More bad shots than good.

I assume by this you don’t just mean short shots. Hitting the ball poorly often doesn’t improve by just changing tees.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, rvanculin said:

I think it is certainly possible to get a 10-shot difference in moving only 1 set of tees. I would think it is very rare, though, and varies based on each players and his/her strengths and weaknesses.

Anything's "possible," but it's also highly unlikely. Unless from the one-up tees they can carry some penalty areas or ravines or something that they can barely carry sometimes from the one-back tees, it's pretty unlikely that one set of tees is going to take someone from 86 to 76. I know this because of the course ratings. Yes, on any given day someone can shoot 10 shots different… but that's also true from the same tees, so that's not what anyone is saying.

The OP cited scores of 86 vs. 76 or something, so we're talking about a roughly a ten index player (give or take). Certainly a 120 golfer is more likely to save ten shots shaving off 400 yards, but it's pretty tough for a 10 index golfer to do so with any regularity.

3 hours ago, rvanculin said:

Ballyhack, Moraine CC, The Golf Club. Ballyhack, for example, I played from the tips on a pretty windy day and it was my first time seeing the course. Same situation as playing PH #2, really.

Ballyhack is a six-tee difference for a scratch golfer to get ten shots different:

Moraine is four (I'm not counting the composite tees) and you don't even get to ten shots for a scratch golfer:

The Golf Club is less than nine shots across five tees for a scratch golfer:

And yeah, that's for scratch, but let's take a 10 index golfer and see what his playing handicap is from each of the tees:

Tee Name	Course Rating	Course Slope	Play Hdcp
Big Lick	76.1	155	18
State Open	74.1	154	16
Ballyhack	73.5	152	15
Appalachian	72.0	148	13
Blueridge	70.6	145	11
Star	68.7	139	9
Valley	66.1	133	6

There's a nine-shot difference (for the 10 handicap index golfer) from Big Lick to Star (five tee boxes, blue) and a ten-shot difference for the same 10.0 from State Open to Valley (purple) - also five tee boxes.

'In other words, though on any given day or for one particular kind of golfer or something, yeah, you can get to 10 to 12 shots difference by moving up ONE tee box, but it's incredibly rare and highly unlikely. Especially with the 86/76 numbers thrown out.

And again, as others have said, if you hit the ball far but still shoot 90… why should you play short tees? Maybe you will shoot 84, or 82 even, but you might have driver taken out of your hands far too often, you might have to hit too many wedges into greens, etc. It might not be how you enjoy golf at all.

2 hours ago, Sandy Lie said:

I could also respond with an example of disastrous rounds as well.

And for every one of those types of "examples" someone can provide a counter-example. One-off examples — from either side — are pretty pointless IMO in this type of context.

[Sandy Lie]

11 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I assume by this you don’t just mean short shots. Hitting the ball poorly often doesn’t improve by just changing tees.

No.  Forced carries and hitting more greens as I recall. Hitting shorter irons into greens as well.

[Darkfrog]

 

35 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I don't know how common it is for tees to determine POP.

I've experienced this before, basically a bad, short hitting golfer playing from too far back, but IMO more often it's just slow golfers being slow. Like you imply, slow golfers will be slow no matter what. There are some holes on my home course that exacerbate this from the back tees, but in general, most of the slowest groups I encounter are teeing off from the middle tees. I liken them to the people in grocery stores who block an entire isle with their cart while looking for something - just complete lack of awareness to certain behaviors.

35 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Normally pre-shot routines, lack of provisionals, and poor cart management are what I see slowing things down, or things like writing scores and cleaning clubs green-side, when you cloud be doing it on the next tee while your playing partners are hitting.

Also people who don't start reading a putt until it's their turn, and then look at a 5-foot putt for double bogey from 15 different angles. I have a friend who does this and it infuriates me. To top it off, after his lengthy putt reading routine, he'll ask me what way I think it breaks.

[Bonvivant]

1 minute ago, Darkfrog said:

Also people who don't start reading a putt until it's their turn, and then look at a 5-foot putt for double bogey from 15 different angles. I have a friend who does this and it infuriates me. To top it off, after his lengthy putt reading routine, he'll ask me what way I think it breaks.

I completely left this out, but is one of the most infuriating behaviors I can think of.

[Double Mocha Man]

31 minutes ago, rvanculin said:

I have to say that I 100% agree that slow people will be slow no matter where they are playing. I have gotten a lot of people into playing golf, and they all say "You won't want to play with me, I'm no good." I always respond "I don't care how well you play, I care how quick you play."

And I've never heard someone take the blame for being slow, everyone thinks they are quick.

There is an art and a skill to playing quickly.  Maybe the world's slow players watched Dustin Johnson this past weekend and learned something.

[Bonvivant]

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

There is an art and a skill to playing quickly.  Maybe the world's slow players watched Dustin Johnson this past weekend and learned something.

Don't hold your breath on this one...he didn't exactly shoot lights out and some may attribute that to playing "too fast", when in reality it's because he hasn't played much the last few weeks (and was wearing shorts lol, jk).

[Sandy Lie]

4 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I completely left this out, but is one of the most infuriating behaviors I can think of.

I play with that guy!  🤣  

 

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

Anything's "possible," but it's also highly unlikely. Unless from the one-up tees they can carry some penalty areas or ravines or something that they can barely carry sometimes from the one-back tees, it's pretty unlikely that one set of tees is going to take someone from 86 to 76. I know this because of the course ratings. Yes, on any given day someone can shoot 10 shots different… but that's also true from the same tees, so that's not what anyone is saying.

The OP cited scores of 86 vs. 76 or something, so we're talking about a roughly a ten index player (give or take). Certainly a 120 golfer is more likely to save ten shots shaving off 400 yards, but it's pretty tough for a 10 index golfer to do so with any regularity.

Ballyhack is a six-tee difference for a scratch golfer to get ten shots different:

Moraine is four (I'm not counting the composite tees) and you don't even get to ten shots for a scratch golfer:

The Golf Club is less than nine shots across five tees for a scratch golfer:

And yeah, that's for scratch, but let's take a 10 index golfer and see what his playing handicap is from each of the tees:

Tee Name	Course Rating	Course Slope	Play Hdcp
Big Lick	76.1	155	18
State Open	74.1	154	16
Ballyhack	73.5	152	15
Appalachian	72.0	148	13
Blueridge	70.6	145	11
Star	68.7	139	9
Valley	66.1	133	6

There's a nine-shot difference (for the 10 handicap index golfer) from Big Lick to Star (five tee boxes, blue) and a ten-shot difference for the same 10.0 from State Open to Valley (purple) - also five tee boxes.

'In other words, though on any given day or for one particular kind of golfer or something, yeah, you can get to 10 to 12 shots difference by moving up ONE tee box, but it's incredibly rare and highly unlikely. Especially with the 86/76 numbers thrown out.

And again, as others have said, if you hit the ball far but still shoot 90… why should you play short tees? Maybe you will shoot 84, or 82 even, but you might have driver taken out of your hands far too often, you might have to hit too many wedges into greens, etc. It might not be how you enjoy golf at all.

And for every one of those types of "examples" someone can provide a counter-example. One-off examples — from either side — are pretty pointless IMO in this type of context.

Good explanation! I can buy into that.