My Swing (bweiss711)

[Grizvok]

8 minutes ago, daSeth said:

The Good - There is a lot to like about your swing. It's very athletic. There are aspects of your impact position that are much much better than your average 18 handicapper. Your head is behind the ball, your hands are in front, you have an excellent flat left wrist and combination bent right wrist. You also generate loads of club head speed. I'd guess you played some baseball in a past life?

The Bad - If you came from baseball in a past life, the bad stuff coming up is pretty common for former baseball players. A baseball swing requires dynamic movement to be able to adjust to the ball speed, location, movement etc... None of that is required in golf as the ball is just sitting there waiting to be struck. Your lower half is waaaaaay too active. In your backswing your left foot comes off the ground and your left leg rotates inward. As you start your downswing, the right foot is on tippy toes. In terms of your upper body, your head and torso are moving down through the backswing and up as you are coming through the ball. You're just never going to hit the ball consistently with this much going on.

First order of business, your lower body needs to match the static nature of a sitting golf ball as opposed to the dynamic nature of a moving baseball. Hit the range and keep both feet fully on the ground during the backswing and downswing (yeah, I know, it's gonna feel really weird and very un-athletic). This will require less weight on your toes and more on your heels. Those heels are not going to stay on the ground without some pressure/friction. You are only allowed to lift your back foot AFTER striking the ball. Try to keep your lower body much more quiet in general. Think of your lower body as a solid stable platform that your upper body simply rotates on/around. For reference, check out how little is going on with Tiger's lower body in his back swing (compare side by side to yourself). In the downswing, just a bump forward to his front side. Work on steady head and steady spine angle from start of backswing until contact. If anything, your head is only allowed to go down a bit through impact.

Secondarily, and less important, backswing is very flat and downswing a little over the top producing the fade. After you fix the stuff above, do some mirror work to line things up a little better.

The good news, there is absolutely no reason you can't play some really good golf. Dramatic improvement is in the cards. Won't surprise me a bit if you are back in a year as a 5 handicap. With your impact position/hands, there is absolutely no reason you can't consistently hit really good golf shots, shot after shot after shot.

P.S. Don't let anyone tell you your wrist is too bowed at the top, pros hit from this position fine.

I mean, you can sure. You can also swing like Matt Wolff and be an incredible golfer, but is modeling your swing after him ideal?

[bweiss711]

@daSeth  Wow! Dude!  Thank you so much!  Its scary how much you captured about how I feel about my own game at the moment, just from a few swings.  I really can't thank you enough for taking the time for the encouragement and help.

 

1 hour ago, daSeth said:

There are aspects of your impact position that are much much better than your average 18 handicapper. Your head is behind the ball, your hands are in front, you have an excellent flat left wrist and combination bent right wrist. 

Awesome to hear.  Hopefully nothing i do moving forward will change that for the worse.

 

1 hour ago, daSeth said:

I'd guess you played some baseball in a past life?

Nailed it.  Its amazing how many people tell me that about my swing.  I hear it all the time. 

 

1 hour ago, daSeth said:

You're just never going to hit the ball consistently with this much going on.

Absolutely, inconsistency is the number one issue with my game.  As you have seemed to already guess, I'm very capable of hitting excellent shots right now.  Problem is, I'm just as likely to hit far less than excellent shots.  Makes sense that fewer moving parts can lead to more consistency.

 

1 hour ago, daSeth said:

Try to keep your lower body much more quiet in general. Work on steady head and steady spine angle from start of backswing until contact.

I will definitely work on this with those drills as you suggest.  Seeing my head move the way it did in those videos was eye opening, and now understanding more about the lower body, makes me understand more where the inconsistency is coming from.  Its going to take work, of course.  And i'll put in the work.  The trick is going to be figuring out how to quiet and steady those parts of my body without becoming stiff and rigid.

 

1 hour ago, daSeth said:

P.S. Don't let anyone tell you your wrist is too bowed at the top, pros hit from this position fine.

Well, I'm well aware that I'm no pro, but also am capable of making good contact from that position.  However, if someone were to tell me flattening out that wrist would be the key to more consistency, I'd listen.  But right now, certainly seems like having fewer moving parts, head and legs, is the lowest hanging fruit.

 

1 hour ago, daSeth said:

The good news, there is absolutely no reason you can't play some really good golf. Dramatic improvement is in the cards. Won't surprise me a bit if you are back in a year as a 5 handicap. With your impact position/hands, there is absolutely no reason you can't consistently hit really good golf shots, shot after shot after shot.

Again, your encouragement here is just as helpful to me as the advice.  Makes me feel like a lot of the work i did on my own prior to this thread was worthwhile and put me on the right track.  However, 5 handicap within a year seems a tad optimistic.  I would say that I don't think I'm that far away from a 12 right now.  I'm an 18 at the moment, and its because i play half the holes like a 12, and the other half like a 24.  I'd like to eliminate the 24 part of my game first before the discussion goes to single digits.

[bweiss711]

1 hour ago, Grizvok said:

I mean, you can sure. You can also swing like Matt Wolff and be an incredible golfer, but is modeling your swing after him ideal?

No worries here.  I have no visions of myself as Dustin Johnson, nor was i modeling my swing after him.  The bowed wrist just kind of happened.  When I was working on my swing over the winter, I was trying to stamp out flexion at the top.  I was able to get to the bowed position and started making good contact.  And that's as far as i thought it through.

[daSeth]

On 7/18/2020 at 2:24 PM, Grizvok said:

I mean, you can sure. You can also swing like Matt Wolff and be an incredible golfer, but is modeling your swing after him ideal?

So Matt's got a wierd backswing and the foot lift is highly unconventional. But from the top down, he's as conventional as it comes. While I certainly would not advocate for Matt's backswing, I would absolutely do anything Matt is doing from the top into the ball.

In terms of OP, great hands through the ball, position of hands at the top is not super relevant. IMHO.

[billchao]

8 hours ago, daSeth said:

But from the top down, he's as conventional as it comes.

I disagree. He's super shallow and jumps a whole lot. Lots of right side bend. It's not conventional at all.

[bweiss711]

On 7/18/2020 at 4:57 PM, bweiss711 said:

When I was working on my swing over the winter, I was trying to stamp out flexion at the top.  I was able to get to the bowed position and started making good contact. 

First just want to clear up that i think this is the 2nd time in this thread ive discussed that my bowed wrist came about by me trying to get rid of flexion at the top of my backswing.  I apologize for using the term incorrectly.  I used to cup my wrist at the top of the backswing, extension, and in trying to correct that, i ended up with the bowed wrist you guys see now, flexion.

 

On to maybe some progress, I went to the range the last 2 days.  Was working on keeping my head still and legs quiet.  And the suggestion to work on my posture kind of worked its way in there.  It seemed if i could stand more upright and relaxed, i was putting more weight on my heels, as opposed to the balls of my feet.  This made it harder for my left leg to lift and twist inward, which made it easier for my head to stay still.  Or at least that's what I feel, and what I think is showing some progress in these videos.

 

First the posture:  Left is last week with a 6i, right is today with an 8i. I think its better?  The one on the left seems like im much more hunched over, where the one on the right seems to be upright with more weight in my hips and heels.

 

Now some video:  In the caddy views, i can defintely see less movement in my left leg.  I think my head is still moving too much.

 

Not sure what to make of the DTL views here.  I think my planes looks ok.  Almost looks like im too close to the ball?

 

Thanks for taking a look.  Hopefully, this is progress.

[Grizvok]

The new posture looks worse.

[uitar9]

Hey man,I only bring this up as you have one of Hogans pictures. In your face on angle, your back swing is starting with just your arms and seems to continue up that way. Hips and shoulders are being dragged around. 

hips and shoulders need to turn, not be dragged around.

You have some fancy compensation going on to get back to the ball. Hips are not turning back, they are sliding back.

I like Hogans idea of starting the back swing as one piece and starting the downswing with the hips. Its in the 5 steps.

Golf is hard. There are so many pieces to a swing and we are all different body types.. I like the idea of working on one piece at a time. Maybe its hip turn for the next couple weeks. Try it with no ball. Then you just think about the thing you are working on, not the outcome.

 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Grizvok said:

The new posture looks worse.

Agreed. Both need work, but the left one is "better."

[bweiss711]

9 hours ago, Grizvok said:

The new posture looks worse.

 

7 hours ago, uitar9 said:

Hey man,I only bring this up as you have one of Hogans pictures.

 

30 minutes ago, iacas said:

Agreed. Both need work, but the left one is "better."

 

Much appreciated.  I'm going to formally declare my priority piece to be stance and posture.  And since I have been attempting to use Hogan's Five Lessons as a basis for my swing, I'll recommit to his lesson in that book on Stance and Posture.

I know there is a lot to work on everywhere in my swing, but might as well start at there.  Hogan says all the pieces build on each other.  Doesn't make sense to work on anything he has in the 3rd and 4th lessons if i'm still not there in the 2nd lesson.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide your input.

[bweiss711]

Figure its time to update the thread.  My last declared part of the swing to focus on was stance and posture.  Here is a snapshot from a swing i took today.

Compared to 2 previous images, both of which were said to be not great. Maybe the new one is a compromise of the 2?

 I also did the day 1 drill from the 30 day covid challenge relating to the initial take away today.  I believe my backswing needs a lot of work, so assuming my stance and posture is in a decent spot, the next logical place to go is the initial takeaway of the backswing.  Here is my swing from today at A2. I think its ok.  Should my club be outside my hands more? Should there be more shoulder rotation?

And here is my complete swing.  I know I'm still a little OTT, but not going to worry about that until i work my way through the entire backswing to make sure im setting myself up to succeed on the downswing.

 

[Grizvok]

You don't need a compromise of the two. If those three pictures compromise a small part of a spectrum, you need to be moving even further past what you were doing in the old posture. You are forcing even more compensations into a swing that already has quite a few of them. You are forcing yourself to drastically change your inclination to the ground very early on in the backswing. I'm going to say something that might seem crazy, but DO NOT attempt to learn to swing a golf club from Hogan's 50+ year old book. It's not going to do anything for you (anything good anyway).

 

[bweiss711]

25 minutes ago, Grizvok said:

You don't need a compromise of the two. If those three pictures compromise a small part of a spectrum, you need to be moving even further past what you were doing in the old posture. You are forcing even more compensations into a swing that already has quite a few of them. You are forcing yourself to drastically change your inclination to the ground very early on in the backswing. I'm going to say something that might seem crazy, but DO NOT attempt to learn to swing a golf club from Hogan's 50+ year old book. It's not going to do anything for you (anything good anyway).

Wow, thank you.  That visual makes so much sense.  Maybe it should be common sense, but seeing it laid out that way is extremely helpful.  I've always known that i need to try to swing around the spine on the backswing, but its difficult for me to visualize exactly how to do that.  Just thinking about simply bending over more (there's probably more to it than that, but its where i'll start) seems like it will make so much of the rest of the backswing easier.  Keeping the club head outside the hands for one, but i also can feel while thinking through it, that it may flatten out my wrist naturally, as that bowed wrist is one of the compensations you're talking about.  I really appreciate the time you took to put that together.

As for Hogan's book, I'm not surprised to hear that.  Its one of those things that my dad got me into when i was in high school, and I assumed was going to be the best way to learn.  I figure a good golfer from 70 years ago would still be good today, or at least better than I am today.  But if that's not how the swing is taught anymore, or there have been clear advancements in a better way to swing, I'm game to learn whatever is going to make me better.

I have LSW on the way right now.  I'm not sure that its truly an instructional book, but I'm very interested to learn more about those 5 keys I read about on this site.

Thanks again.

[Grizvok]

2 minutes ago, bweiss711 said:

Wow, thank you.  That visual makes so much sense.  Maybe it should be common sense, but seeing it laid out that way is extremely helpful.  I've always known that i need to try to swing around the spine on the backswing, but its difficult for me to visualize exactly how to do that.  Just thinking about simply bending over more (there's probably more to it than that, but its where i'll start) seems like it will make so much of the rest of the backswing easier.  Keeping the club head outside the hands for one, but i also can feel while thinking through it, that it may flatten out my wrist naturally, as that bowed wrist is one of the compensations you're talking about.  I really appreciate the time you took to put that together.

As for Hogan's book, I'm not surprised to hear that.  Its one of those things that my dad got me into when i was in high school, and I assumed was going to be the best way to learn.  I figure a good golfer from 70 years ago would still be good today, or at least better than I am today.  But if that's not how the swing is taught anymore, or there have been clear advancements in a better way to swing, I'm game to learn whatever is going to make me better.

I have LSW on the way right now.  I'm not sure that its truly an instructional book, but I'm very interested to learn more about those 5 keys I read about on this site.

Thanks again.

In terms of swinging around the spine on the backswing (or more precisely maintaining your inclination to the ground), there really isn’t that much more to it than that.

Also, the takeaway looks much improved. Nice job.

[boogielicious]

I agree with @Grizvok. I would add to work with shorter swings and practice at slower speeds. Looks at the COVID drills day 1 - 5 and do them slowly.

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/103842-covid-19-practice-plan-challenge-april-1-30-2020/

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Grizvok said:

You don't need a compromise of the two. If those three pictures compromise a small part of a spectrum, you need to be moving even further past what you were doing in the old posture.

Yup.

[bweiss711]

So I did day 22 drill from the 30 day covid challenge.  I appreciate that the drill was simple enough that even I had some confidence I could pull it off.  I understand completely the feeling of arms dropped down straight, and then relaxing the knees.  Makes a lot of sense, and is easily repeatable. 

My question is then, is this posture used for every club in the bag?  If i were to do that drill, hang my arms down, and then pick up a wedge, would the angle of my spine be the same as if i picked up a driver?  So the only thing that changes in the stance as you hold longer clubs is 1) how far away you are from the ball and naturally 2) the angle of the club shaft as it relates to the ground?

Thanks

Edited August 14, 2020 by bweiss711

[bweiss711]

Been a few weeks since ive posted.  Been working on stance and posture, and think I have made some progress.  I'm coming off the best round of my life this past weekend, due mostly to how far my driver has come.  The key to all of this change was 8/12 when @Grizvok produced that outrageously simple and outrageously illustrative image of what spine inclination should be, and what mine was.  I've been working on it, also using the day 22 drill from the 30 day covid challenge, and really believe I hit a breakthrough during my practice last week.  Here are two images.... the first one is my drives in the 63 holes i played after 8/12, but prior to my practice sessions last week.  The one on the right is from the 27 holes i played this past weekend, after it seems something clicked for me during practice.

First, I'm certainly not saying that after 14 drives, my driving is now perfect, and the job is done.  Just saying I believe these images show a true change in performance, and hopefully will be looked back on as a turning point.  Second, just a few notes about the less than typical drives in the second image.  The 4 drives to the right were all basically the same miss, a push fade (and a slight one compared to my previous standards).  The red one was head-on into a very strong wind, and the really short one was indeed the worst one. However, it happened to be on a hole with a penalty area to the right, and 141 yards is where I took my drop.  The actual drive would have been closer to the other ones and further right.  The short one on the left came on a par 4 playing at about 290 yards.  I decided to "give it everything I had", barely was able to get the very bottom of the club face to make enough contact with the ball, and it carried about 130 yards in the air 2 feet off the ground.  (fwiw, i put the approach 15 feet away from the pin and sunk the putt for a birdie.) So that was it, 4 of the same, manageable miss, and 1 mental error.  All the other drives were basically the same with one severe pull.  That's a massive improvement.

Here is an image from a practice session today.  And then also compared to a swing I posted here earlier in the swing thread.

Pretty drastic difference.  Is it possible I'm too hunched over now? 

And here is the full swing from today's practice session. Still a lot of head movement, my weight finishes considerably on my back foot, and that wrist is still bowed.  But, I'm hitting solid for now.  My plan to is keep with the stance as my priority piece.  I still don't think I've quite figured out how to adjust for the irons just yet, and I'll post again after my practice session tomorrow.  Once the stance is in a good place, priority piece will move to focus solely on stead head.  Weight forward might be after that.