"Out of Time" by Bill Yates

[Bonvivant]

50 minutes ago, billchao said:

If every person in a foursome really took 2 minutes every drive, they’d basically be still walking to their second shots by the time the group behind them is supposed to be teeing off. It would probably take over 20 minutes for them to play a single hole.

It usually isn't every player. One or two is what turns what should be a 3:30 round (IMO this is the longest is should take to play a round) into a 5:30 round.

 

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I can agree that rounds shouldn't take 4:30 or more to play, and courses can do a lot to help speed things along.  But you sound like you'd still be impatient at a 4:00 pace

This is pretty accurate, but I am ok with 4:00 for sure.

 

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

You have some choice in the matter, you can and should find ways to slow your pace somewhat when you know you can't go "fast", take small measures to decrease the amount of time you spend standing and waiting.  Stroll, don't stride, and you'll enjoy life more.

More golf would be more enjoyable to me, and sometimes its the difference between 18 holes on a weekend day, and what could be 36 holes on that same day. I would gladly stay at the course for 7-8 hours if it meant I got 2 rounds in, but 5-5:30 for one round (with my warm up included) feels like I am getting jipped for my time by others.

 

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I find that its extremely easy to decide how someone else should spend their money.  In this case, you're suggesting that the course spend some money to make your own life better.  But from the business side, they have to decide whether spending that additional money will cause an increase in revenue. 

I mentioned how they have volunteers just sitting around half the time. Put 'em to good use I say.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

It usually isn't every player. One or two is what turns what should be a 3:30 round (IMO this is the longest is should take to play a round) into a 5:30 round.

5:30 is definitely slow, but 3:30 is well under what most courses consider the expected pace of play. You like to play fast, but you can’t expect everyone else to accommodate that.

[Bonvivant]

Just now, billchao said:

5:30 is definitely slow, but 3:30 is well under what most courses consider the expected pace of play. You like to play fast, but you can’t expect everyone else to accommodate that.

I agree. I suppose that I would be ok with up to 4:30, as long as I can't see a particular person that "takes all day". The wannabe Brysons or Holmes are the ones I take issue with.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

It usually isn't every player. One or two is what turns what should be a 3:30 round (IMO this is the longest is should take to play a round) into a 5:30 round.

Most courses are pace rated for 4 hours to 4 1/2 hours.

My original point is also that if you are pushing people on a golf course that’s over 50% saturated you’re causing problems, not solutions.

[rvanculin]

I think this concept makes sense if you think of it like merging on the highway, when you go from 3 lanes to 2, or similar. If everyone could just zipper in at, say, 55 mph, you're still slowing down, but it's much better than when people try to slam into a spot where there isn't room, everyone slams on brakes, and we're at 15 mph.

[iacas]

Just like traffic…

Ripple effect slows us all

---

In heavy traffic, drivers moderate their speed, causing those behind to slow slightly. That generates a ripple effect down the line of traffic.

 

[Darkfrog]

I ordered and received my copy of this book a couple days ago after reading discussion in the What Constitutes Slow Play thread, where it seems like the overall sentiment is that slow play is caused by slow golfers - Bill Yates, the "Pace of Play Guru" thinks otherwise. I'm about half way through, and so far I it has been enlightening, and I am looking forward to completing it. I'll probably re-read it when I finish and take some notes on what the book presents.

The way the book is organized makes it a little difficult to get all of the critical information about causes/solutions for slow play on the first pass. It could be that the book was somewhat rushed due the author's health situation (cancer diagnosis) that prompted him to transfer the knowledge he had acquired through many years of consulting onto paper (he thought that he might literally be "out of time", and he passed away in 2018). At least in the first half of the book, the actual knowledge he is disseminating is woven between personal stories and more opinion type writing about golf, and what makes golf great, etc. I am enjoying his perspectives in these parts of the book, but I will definitely re-read, just focusing on the PoP stuff.

This probably won't be a book I keep on my bookshelf eternally. If any TST'ers would like my copy when I finished, I'd be happy to send it to someone else, who can then pay it forward when they're done.

[RobinWhite90]

Excellent book, easy to read and understand, well written. I have known the author since childhood, and never met a more humble, honest, and knowledgeable person. As the expert in the field of golf experiences, he speaks the truth. "So let it be written, So let it be done."

[Darkfrog]

Offering one last time before I put it in one of my local Little Free Libraries.

Anyone want my copy of Out of Time? Maybe you want to read it yourself, or maybe the GM at your home course needs to read it.

Message me if interested, I'll keep it on my shelf until Friday 2022-02-11.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

Offering one last time before I put it in one of my local Little Free Libraries.

Anyone want my copy of Out of Time? Maybe you want to read it yourself, or maybe the GM at your home course needs to read it.

Message me if interested, I'll keep it on my shelf until Friday 2022-02-11.

If your course suffers from slow play, I would take him up on this offer.

[Darkfrog]

21 hours ago, Darkfrog said:

Message me if interested, I'll keep it on my shelf until Friday 2022-02-11.

Claimed by @rvanculin

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

Claimed by @rvanculin

Good. He should post more. 🙂

[rvanculin]

I’m going to read this, then gift it to the head pro at my club, lol. Required reading for all new members. 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, rvanculin said:

I’m going to read this, then gift it to the head pro at my club, lol. Required reading for all new members. 

Members won't really get too much from it… except that they'll be able to blame the course for more slow play and not each other.

The book talks mostly about what courses can do to speed up play (and by "speed up play" I don't mean necessarily reduce round times, but reduce the amount of time players are waiting).

4:30 of "flowing" golf feels better than 4:00 of constant stop-start golf.

[jsgolfer]

On 6/25/2020 at 9:37 AM, iacas said:

Golfers, Bill Yates says, are only one out of the five reasons for pace issues. The course is responsible for the other four, so this might still be an issue even without "slow golfers."

Bill Yates would argue that this whole idea of "keeping up with the group in front" is bogus and leads to jamming up too frequently.

Anecdotally, it has always appeared to me to be the opposite of this.  I'm trying to picture in my mind how this would happen if you keep up with the group in front of you, it would jam up the course more frequently.  I guess if the group you're keeping up with tends to be on the slower side and all groups behind are faster, maybe this is where it leads to slow down.

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Anecdotally, it has always appeared to me to be the opposite of this.  I'm trying to picture in my mind how this would happen if you keep up with the group in front of you, it would jam up the course more frequently.  I guess if the group you're keeping up with tends to be on the slower side and all groups behind are faster, maybe this is where it leads to slow down.

Read the book.

But, basically, if you're right on their heels, it's a lot easier for the course to jam up because you're more likely to wait when they encounter a small delay, or you want to hit to a par five in two and they're putting.

If you weren't right on their heels, because the course had better "pacing," you'd just be reaching your shortest tee shots as they're putting, or you could absorb a small delay while they look for a ball, without having to wait on them.

Same is true of traffic on the road: if everyone maintained good pacing and distance throughout, someone tapping the brakes wouldn't cause such huge backups or ripples. It'd be absorbed, the car that braked could get back to their spot, etc.

But buy and read the book.

[jsgolfer]

 

58 minutes ago, iacas said:

But buy and read the book.

Just ordered it.

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Just ordered it.

Good. You'll see he feels strongly it's not about the absolute time, but the "flow."

For others: https://amzn.to/33c5XEM.