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Double Mocha Man

Does Your Course Charge Extra to Ride Solo?

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8 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

The un-named course I've been referring to that in effect requires a power cart because of the steep hills/cliffs has 72-75 fully functional carts.  Young guys tend to walk but they oftentimes beg rides up the two steep cliffs.  Normal fleet is 60 with the extra dozen carts used in big scramble tournaments.  9 minute tee time intervals. 

.

Just say it.

SHUKSAN

I haven't played Shuksan in 20 years....my wife use to always b*tch that I wouldn't rent a cart because I'm a cheap a**.....I always said the walk/climb is good for your heart.

But all my savings flew out the window at Bellis Fair Mall.😝

6 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Two courses in our area have closed and another one is rumored to be closing. The one shut down is pandemic related and the rumored one would be pandemic related. 

Please PM the 3 courses.....inquiring minds want to know.

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19 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

All I am saying is that in a competitive market a course might want to be a bit lenient, and certainly market observant, on cart pricing given the sensitive nature of the situation.

And all others are saying is that they might be doing what they need to do to survive, and maybe you or your "friend" shouldn't be looking for special treatment. Asking for special treatment doesn't align with "we're all in this together."

19 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

I also believe if a course seized the opportunity to inform the golfing public that they are not upcharging on single carts during the pandemic they would have a market advantage, and make up for loss of cart revenue by realizing increased greens fee revenue.

What good is a market advantage if:

  • It destroys the course.
  • Players show up and can't play because all the carts are out.
  • The course loses money.
  • Etc.

You seem to be vastly over-rating customer loyalty.

19 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Never said I have the financials.  Nor did I ever say my friend who works there has the financials.  We don't.

Financials are not the be all and end all of running a good business that takes into account its customer's and potential customer's needs. 

Okay Karen.


BTW, I think you should put in a few hundred hours of work for free because "we're all in this together" and the local courses could use someone like you with such a pulse on the community, and an expert in marketing and PR.

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5 minutes ago, Mr22putt said:

Just say it.

SHUKSAN

I haven't played Shuksan in 20 years....my wife use to always b*tch that I wouldn't rent a cart because I'm a cheap a**.....I always said the walk/climb is good for your heart.

But all my savings flew out the window at Bellis Fair Mall.😝

Please PM the 3 courses.....inquiring minds want to know.

You had to go and shout it out to the whole golfing world!  Hopefully the management at said course is reading this thread.

The 3 courses are not a secret.  Eaglemont already closed.  Kayak Point closed last year.  And rumors are flying about Homestead closing.

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@Double Mocha Man I look forward to your future topics where you complain about:

  • stamps prices going up
  • sales tax on shipping
  • night-time movies costing more than matinees

Good god man-You are just complaining about something.

This entire topic is basically you bitching-WIthout knowing anything- About a course making a business decision that they think will benefit them.

Can we lock the topic now?-This feels like it should have been a tweet-not a forum topic.

You asked a question-But didn't even make a poll.

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Just now, Phil McGleno said:

@Double Mocha Man I look forward to your future topics where you complain about:

  • stamps prices going up
  • sales tax on shipping
  • night-time movies costing more than matinees

Good god man-You are just complaining about something.

This entire topic is basically you bitching-WIthout knowing anything- About a course making a business decision that they think will benefit them.

A good business decision also takes into account marketing, not just a profit and loss statement or balance sheets. 

I just ordered 55 cent stamps online today.  Still a bargain.  I buy stuff on Ebay and am happy to pay sales tax, it's only right.  Night-time movies or matinees... doesn't matter, as long as they don't charge me for the empty seat next to me.

I assume you can take a joke.

6 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

@Double Mocha Man I look forward to your future topics where you complain about:

  • stamps prices going up
  • sales tax on shipping
  • night-time movies costing more than matinees

Good god man-You are just complaining about something.

This entire topic is basically you bitching-WIthout knowing anything- About a course making a business decision that they think will benefit them.

Can we lock the topic now?-This feels like it should have been a tweet-not a forum topic.

You asked a question-But didn't even make a poll.

I asked Erik about making a poll.  Whether people wanted to continue the discussion or not.

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5 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

A good business decision also takes into account marketing, not just a profit and loss statement or balance sheets.

For f***s sake-You do not know if it was a good business decision. You are just bitching about something.

5 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

I asked Erik about making a poll.  Whether people wanted to continue the discussion or not.

Um the poll would be about: Does Your Course Charge Extra to Ride Solo?

 

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I'm still wondering why this mess is in the Tour Talk forum....

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On 7/23/2020 at 10:29 PM, iacas said:

If you're sick, stay home. It's not your right to get to play golf in your own cart.

What a strange response.  You know that people who don't feel sick can spread this virus.  And that health experts recommend we all social distance, regardless of whether we feel sick.  Of course I'm going to stay home if I'm sick.  But even though I feel healthy, I'm still going to wear a mask at the grocery store and social distance and do all those things we're supposed to be doing.

I would think that when the Governor reopened golf courses, with the proviso that efforts are taken to maintain social distancing and other precautions, that a state owned golf course would do better. 

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7 hours ago, dsc123 said:

You know that people who don't feel sick can spread this virus. 

Of course I know that.

The laws or rules often allow double rider carts. The onus on everyone is to use their best judgment. If you’re high risk that judgment involves either not playing golf if you’re forced to ride with a stranger or paying the extra fee. The course isn’t obligated to take a hit.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Of course I know that.

The laws or rules often allow double rider carts. The onus on everyone is to use their best judgment. If you’re high risk that judgment involves either not playing golf if you’re forced to ride with a stranger or paying the extra fee. The course isn’t obligated to take a hit.

Im not sure you're right about the laws/rules. I think places permitted to reopen here still have to abide by social distancing and other precautions.  Providing solo carts is the golf equivalent of reduced capcity restaurants that we see everywhere.  

Its just not a use your own judgment sort of thing.  We've seen how that goes. 

And I would have no problem with them charging a higher fee.  But that is not the policy.  They provide 2 carts per foursome.  There is no pay more and get a solo cart option. 

I dont think courses should necessarily have to ban people from sharing--though my club and othershave done that--just because that could put course employees in a tough spot.  But they should make solo carts available so their customers can play without violating CDC and state government guidelines.  UMD's policy encourages people NOT to social distance.  I think that is reprehensible. 

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36 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

Im not sure you're right about the laws/rules

I am. Double carts are allowed.

38 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

There is no pay more and get a solo cart option. 

?? I believe that’s not right. But don’t care enough or have the time to go back and quote the posts for you.

I mean it’s kinda the actual topic unless you’re talking about some courses or place not previously discussed.

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4 hours ago, iacas said:

?? I believe that’s not right. But don’t care enough or have the time to go back and quote the posts for you.

I mean it’s kinda the actual topic unless you’re talking about some courses or place not previously discussed.

Okay.  I guess you didn't read the post you replied to--which quoted the policy--before telling me I was wrong.  Good talk. lol.

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I am. Double carts are allowed.

I'd be interested to see that law or rule.  Here in Maryland, all businesses are required to abide by social distancing guidance from the CDC and MD Dept of Health.  The county where this course is located, says golf is "specifically allowed when done in compliance with applicable CDC and MDH social distancing guidance."  Best I can tell, the CDC still advises to stay 6 feet apart, even while participating in outdoor recreational activities.  Is there some CDC guidance that's more specific to golf? 

This is important stuff.

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10 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

Best I can tell, the CDC still advises to stay 6 feet apart, even while participating in outdoor recreational activities.  Is there some CDC guidance that's more specific to golf? 

This is important stuff.

While I completely agree with you here, it's not reality where I live.  The CDC guide lines are suggestions for everyone's safety.   They aren't completely being mandated/enforced in Michigan.   While we are required to wear a mask when we go into a store, the golf courses are only requiring them inside the pro shop and most have removed any sort of separation between golfers in the carts.   

 

Edited by dennyjones

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16 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

...and most have removed any sort of separation between golfers in the carts.   

Because that little piece of plexiglas was bogus?  Gave you a false sense of security?  The virus particles coming from your mouth are like a shank... they can shoot off in a completely inappropriate direction and go around barriers.  With apologies and condolences to Vinsk.

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1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

Okay.  I guess you didn't read the post you replied to--which quoted the policy--before telling me I was wrong.  Good talk. lol.

Let's be clear here man: you're quoting something from almost a week ago after joining the topic on page five, and I had replied to one piece of your post. I thought you were talking about general golf course stuff, not some unique and specific situation, but even still, I'm going to stand by what I wrote then and today. A week ago, here it is:

Quoting @dsc123: They ended up having enough and everything was fine.  But I found it very off-putting that the course tried to encourage people to double-up as cases are soaring across the country.

I replied: If you're sick, stay home. It's not your right to get to play golf in your own cart.

That's all I wrote. It's a general reply to the idea that people are entitled to a solo cart just because they feel like they're at risk or don't want to ride with someone else. I read the stated policy then, and re-read it again now: "two carts per foursome." That's clearly that course's policy, so why would you think you're entitled to violate it or ask for an exception? That course quite likely doesn't feel that they have enough carts to let people take a solo cart, maybe even if they pay extra, so if you want to play there, it's up to you to:

  • accept that you might be riding with a stranger
  • fill out your own foursome with people you trust/know
  • play elsewhere for awhile

No course is obligated to provide a solo cart for the same cost just because you're not comfortable. And let's imagine the state or county "rules" forbid double rider carts: the course doesn't have to charge you the same as before. They can charge you extra, even if the law requires that they give you a solo cart. And they can then continue to charge the same rate for same-household double-rider carts.

1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

I'd be interested to see that law or rule.

The onus is on you man. I don't care about this specific situation, and I know that golf courses across the country are allowing two people per cart.

1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

Here in Maryland, all businesses are required to abide by social distancing guidance from the CDC and MD Dept of Health.

Again, the onus is on you to prove that allowing two non-household golfers to ride in the same cart is a violation of those rules/laws. They don't seem to be a violation almost anywhere else, so I'm thinking they might not be a violation at your specific course either, but… maybe? I don't really care though.

If this is an actual violation at this specific course, then yeah, the golf course should find a way to allow it… but again, they don't have to do it at the same cost. That's the topic here.

1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

The county where this course is located, says golf is "specifically allowed when done in compliance with applicable CDC and MDH social distancing guidance."

So again, the onus is on you to show how the golf course is violating the policies. Maybe by requiring masks when inside, they satisfy the policy.

1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

Best I can tell, the CDC still advises to stay 6 feet apart, even while participating in outdoor recreational activities.  Is there some CDC guidance that's more specific to golf?

Advice isn't a policy, and the six-foot rule isn't the same outside as it is inside.

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41 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

Okay.  I guess you didn't read the post you replied to--which quoted the policy--before telling me I was wrong.  Good talk. lol.

I'd be interested to see that law or rule.  Here in Maryland, all businesses are required to abide by social distancing guidance from the CDC and MD Dept of Health.  The county where this course is located, says golf is "specifically allowed when done in compliance with applicable CDC and MDH social distancing guidance."  Best I can tell, the CDC still advises to stay 6 feet apart, even while participating in outdoor recreational activities.  Is there some CDC guidance that's more specific to golf? 

This is important stuff.

I think there are two different issues here. One are the laws and county guidelines, which can vary based on the region. The other is what are "best practices" in terms of managing risk during a pandemic.

I know that when Los Angeles County decided to re-open their courses in early May, they mandated that all city and county courses would need to limit the carts to single rider. Even two people in the same household could not share a cart (although that stance has since been softened). In those cases, golfers were not charged extra for single rider carts because the decision was made for them. Incidentally, green fees were raised by about 5%, so that revenue was partially being made up in other areas.

But LA County was the outlier. Almost every other county in California and just about everywhere else in the Midwest and East Coast have no such requirements. So basically, 99% of the courses can dictate whatever policy they want.

Now, the question becomes - is it "right" that courses would charge extra for single rider carts? It is not just an ethical issue but a risk management question as well. If a course charges based on double rider carts and someone gets Covid because they are paired with someone who is asymptomatic, could that course be sued for not following CDC guidelines and endangering their customers? I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. 

But taking it a step further, I think it's fair to debate whether golf courses have a moral duty to the golfing community as a whole. Recall that when government shutdowns started to hit thousands of small businesses back in March, the overwhelming refrain among golfers was that our courses should remain open. The rationale? That golf was an outdoor activity that could done safely and in full compliance with social distancing guidelines. And when the courses did start to re-open here in California, the mentality among most was - "hey guys this is great news. Let's everyone do our part to golf safely and not screw it up."

For the most part, golf courses have taken this to heart - eliminating bunker rakes, turning cups upside down, eliminating common touch points, etc. But the policy to charge based on double occupancy carts really does fly in the face of that, and a criticism could be made that it does more harm than all the aforementioned precautions do good. 

I mean seriously - what is more likely: That I'm going to catch Covid because I happen to touch a rake that some guy two hours earlier touched? Or that I'm going to catch Covid because I have to share a cart with some stranger that may be an asymptomatic carrier? I think the answer is self evident.

Of course, @iacas is right that courses can set whatever policies they feel are most appropriate. And financially, it just makes more sense to charge extra for a single rider. But whether that policy is in the best interests of the golfing community in the near term is up for debate.

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1 hour ago, Big C said:

could that course be sued for not following CDC guidelines

I've yet to see anyone post any guidelines that say you must have single-rider carts when playing golf.

Several seem to be extrapolating the recommendation that you avoid being within 6' of someone for > 15 minutes, but that's not a guideline for a golf cart: a golf cart is moving with a bunch of air flow around you. The 15:00 — itself just an estimate based on a little science — doesn't assume you're in a golf cart.

1 hour ago, Big C said:

Of course, @iacas is right that courses can set whatever policies they feel are most appropriate. And financially, it just makes more sense to charge extra for a single rider. But whether that policy is in the best interests of the golfing community in the near term is up for debate.

A golf course going out of business - or not being able to allow golfers who want to play to play because they ran out of carts at 11am - is likely not very good for the golfing community either.

Remember, we're now allowing people to eat in restaurants, we've always allowed people to shop for necessities, etc. The air inside restaurants, stores, etc. isn't being cycled anywhere near as much as the air is outside. The risk of getting COVID from even an asymptomatic carrier by riding in a cart with them is relatively small: you're still outside, and if you get out of the cart when you're just sitting there, you'll spend very little time riding next to the person. Do other common-sense things like don't talk directly at your "cartner," walk when you can to a few greens with your putter, etc. and you'll be greatly reducing even the time you spend in "close proximity" to them…

And if you want to ride in your own cart, the course is justified in charging more. They have a limited inventory. Courses didn't let you take four solo carts out per foursome before… there has basically always been an upcharge (or it's just been disallowed) for that.

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13 hours ago, iacas said:

but even still, I'm going to stand by what I wrote then and today. A week ago, here it is:

Quoting @dsc123: They ended up having enough and everything was fine.  But I found it very off-putting that the course tried to encourage people to double-up as cases are soaring across the country.

I replied: If you're sick, stay home. It's not your right to get to play golf in your own cart.

That's all I wrote. It's a general reply to the idea that people are entitled to a solo cart just because they feel like they're at risk or don't want to ride with someone else. I read the stated policy then, and re-read it again now: "two carts per foursome." That's clearly that course's policy, so why would you think you're entitled to violate it or ask for an exception? That course quite likely doesn't feel that they have enough carts to let people take a solo cart, maybe even if they pay extra, so if you want to play there, it's up to you to:

  • accept that you might be riding with a stranger
  • fill out your own foursome with people you trust/know
  • play elsewhere for awhile

Yeah, I followed you.  I just disagreed.  Especially with the "if you're sick then stay home" line.  I think we agreed in the subsequent replies that's not how any of this works. 

I don't know about being "entitled" to an exception.  What I said--in the very part you quoted again here--is that the policy is "off-putting" to me, given the realities of the pandemic.  I understand its their policy.  I'm saying its a bad policy.  And later, I said it that seems to conflict with the law.

 

13 hours ago, iacas said:

So again, the onus is on you to show how the golf course is violating the policies.

Right that was the whole part were I referenced the executive orders requiring all businesses--including golf courses--to follow CDC guidance, and then the CDC guidance that says people should social distance during outdoor recreational activities. 

Its very possible that not the applicable guidance.  But I don't see anything that fits better.  I thought when you said I was wrong that maybe you were aware of golf course specific guidance? 

13 hours ago, iacas said:

Advice isn't a policy

When the executive order says you must follow the CDC guidance, the CDC guidance is incorporated into the law.  

13 hours ago, iacas said:

 the six-foot rule isn't the same outside as it is inside.

I'm not sure what you mean, but CDC link I included says to keep 6 feet away when visiting "parks and recreation" facilities.  Outside is safer than inside, sure.  But the CDC still says to social distance outside.

In DC, where I work, you're even now required to wear a mask if you're outdoors and likely to come within 6ft of someone for more than a fleeting moment.

14 hours ago, dennyjones said:

While I completely agree with you here, it's not reality where I live.  The CDC guide lines are suggestions for everyone's safety.   They aren't completely being mandated/enforced in Michigan.   While we are required to wear a mask when we go into a store, the golf courses are only requiring them inside the pro shop and most have removed any sort of separation between golfers in the carts.  

Yeah, every place is going to be different.  That's why I find it strange for someone to definitively declare the practice "allowed."   Even where it is prohibited, it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't enforced.  Our Governor is pretty proactive on this stuff.  DC and Northern Virginia, too. 

10 hours ago, iacas said:

I've yet to see anyone post any guidelines that say you must have single-rider carts when playing golf.

BigC just told you that LA county has such a rule.  Here it is: http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/Coronavirus/docs/protocols/Reopening-GolfCourses.pdf?utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_name=&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=

Here's Mass: https://www.massgolf.org/play/safeplayguidelines/

Here's Wisconsin: https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/WIGOV/2020/04/27/file_attachments/1436850/EMO34-SAHDialTurn.pdf

Here's NY: https://www.nysga.org/communications-news/nysga-updates-regarding-covid-19

New Jersey: https://nj.gov/infobank/eo/056murphy/pdf/EO-133.pdf

Many states, including PA, RI, NH, WA, VT, and ME, prohibited dual riders during earlier reopening phases.  The PGA of America recommends single rider in "Phase 1" and double riding only with masks in "Phase 2."

 

Funny, I started this because UMD said they'd only provide 2 carts.  Further down on their policy statement they say only one person per cart: https://www.golf.umd.edu/-covid-19-policies

 

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Several seem to be extrapolating the recommendation that you avoid being within 6' of someone for > 15 minutes, but that's not a guideline for a golf cart: a golf cart is moving with a bunch of air flow around you.

That's not extrapolation. 

Its simple.  Is golf a business? yes.  It golf a recreational activity? yes.  There's no extrapolation.  That's how every law works.  Broad categories and classifications.

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