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When my GIR are good, my score is good. Even when I am not on the green, but right around it, I like my chipping game, even from traps. I thinks putts, without other stat info, is pretty much useless. For ex, I have a friend who often brags about his low putting #'s but his GIR's are outrageous. Because of this, this allows him to start counting putts often from 10 ft and in.

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When I hit a high number of GIR's, I rarely have a bad round, compared to my typical game.

GIR, nGIR and average club hit into the green (Yep, I keep track of that)...

I go by the "Dammit" rule for putting.  You know when you miss a putt you should have made.  And then you utter it.   5 "Dammits" a round puts me in the "Crap" category for putting.  Zero "Dammits" an

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Greens in Regulation is the barometer that I go by followed by putts per hole.

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1 minute ago, Luv2kruz said:

What does that tell you? 

Good question.  At the end of a round I like to know if I was averaging a 9 iron, 8 iron or a 7 iron into the greens.  Or something else.  Tells me how well, and how long I was manipulating the ball off the tee.  Like GIR, it is a predictor of score.

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(edited)
5 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

FIR and GIR are most important to me.

The rough in my area is not penal, so FIR tends not to be important.

Though some of the courses have heavily tree-lined fairways so then it's important to keep the ball in the fairway or at least in the first cut.

Edited by Double Mocha Man
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(edited)
4 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

The rough in my area is not penal, so FIR tends not to be important.

I get that. I count it more as an indicator for “did I hit the shot intended?” I’m long enough for the courses and tees I play because I’m generally in the mid-150’s ball speed with my driver. However, because I don’t get to play much, and when I do, my buddies and I usually visit new courses; therefore, I like to try to keep it straight. I’m scared of the unknown haha. 

Edited by ncates00
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4 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Good question.  At the end of a round I like to know if I was averaging a 9 iron, 8 iron or a 7 iron into the greens.  Or something else.  Tells me how well, and how long I was manipulating the ball off the tee.  Like GIR, it is a predictor of score.

That might be useful if you play the same course and tees all the time,  but if you play different courses, the average approach club would vary based on hole lengths, so not very useful IMO.

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2 minutes ago, Luv2kruz said:

That might be useful if you play the same course and tees all the time,  but if you play different courses, the average approach club would vary based on hole lengths, so not very useful IMO.

At the end of the day if my total for clubs used in hitting into the greens is 162 (averaging a 9 iron) I'll know that I've been hitting off the tee pretty well.  It is a good indicator of that.  And, generally, it indicates I've scored well.  And, if I didn't score well it tells me I'm not striking my scoring clubs very well.  So it tells me 2 things and what I need to work on.

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10 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

At the end of the day if my total for clubs used in hitting into the greens is 162 (averaging a 9 iron) I'll know that I've been hitting off the tee pretty well.  It is a good indicator of that.  And, generally, it indicates I've scored well.  And, if I didn't score well it tells me I'm not striking my scoring clubs very well.  So it tells me 2 things and what I need to work on.

Again, I think that might work if you played the same course over and over. But if you play varied courses, like I do, that would not be statistically meaningful. For example, I play one course with lots of doglegs and I have to use varied clubs off the tee to position for the approach. On another course of similar length, its bombs away with driver on every hole. My average club coming into greens on the first course is longer because of the course design. So depending on the proportion of time I play each course, my average approach club would all over the map from week to week. So the course design would have more relevance to the outcome than how I stuck the ball on any given day.

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18 minutes ago, Luv2kruz said:

Again, I think that might work if you played the same course over and over. But if you play varied courses, like I do, that would not be statistically meaningful. For example, I play one course with lots of doglegs and I have to use varied clubs off the tee to position for the approach. On another course of similar length, its bombs away with driver on every hole. My average club coming into greens on the first course is longer because of the course design. So depending on the proportion of time I play each course, my average approach club would all over the map from week to week. So the course design would have more relevance to the outcome than how I stuck the ball on any given day.

I hear you.  But I do play a lot of different courses.  And that is a measurement I use.  Works for me.  Maybe not for everyone else.

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  • 1 month later...

Being a numbers guy myself, I like to track stats. When I returned to playing the game in 2019, not only couldn't I hit any fairways, I frequently didn't come close. Thus, more range time on the full swing and I focused on tracking FIR (in addition to number of putts). By the middle of the 2020 season, FIR was no longer particularly relevant for me because I was hitting on, or near, the fairway on 8-9 of 13 holes (there are 5 Par 3s on my home course) and my score only improved by a few strokes; I have stopped tracking FIR. 

In my reading of LSW (currently on Ch 21; Building a Game Plan section) I found the discussion about Separation Value of shots, and the implications for practice focus, to be particularly compelling. Although I have not read "Every Shot Counts" by Mark Broadie, I have read a couple of his papers, so the concept was not new to me, but I found the articulation on its application in LSW to be enlightening.  Aside from Game Planning, driving and approach shots (defined as those from 220-60 yards) are considered the highest SV shots and both employ full swing motion. As a result of reading these concepts, I am now tracking GIR/nGIR (and a couple of others which I'll note below) which I find meaningful because (i) it is ultimately a function of my full swing motion and (ii) clearly has a very high correlation to scoring. 

I am also tracking "Wasted Shots" (water balls, OB and unplayable count as two, tops, thins, shanks, etc as one) and total putts and 3 putts.  My 18 hole round this past Monday, I had a 57/46 for 103. This included 10 "Wasted Shots" on the front, but only 3 on the back. I had 39 putts with a total of 4 three putts (3 on the front, 1 on the back). As for GIR/nGIR, I had no GIR and 4 nGIR. Three of the nGIR were on par 4s, while one was on a par 3; I ended up in greenside bunkers on two par 3s, had a miss hit on a third (leaving the ball 30 yards short on a 170 yard hole) and a water ball (although I did hit the green with my third shot) on the remaining par 3.  

What did I learn from these stats? 

  1. I need to spend much more time on my full swing motion which should reduce wasted shots and increase GIR/nGIR, and
  2. Putting work, focusing on line (I'll probably take an Aimpoint lesson) and speed. 
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9 minutes ago, Bob M said:

Being a numbers guy myself, I like to track stats. When I returned to playing the game in 2019, not only couldn't I hit any fairways, I frequently didn't come close. Thus, more range time on the full swing and I focused on tracking FIR (in addition to number of putts). By the middle of the 2020 season, FIR was no longer particularly relevant for me because I was hitting on, or near, the fairway on 8-9 of 13 holes (there are 5 Par 3s on my home course) and my score only improved by a few strokes; I have stopped tracking FIR. 

In my reading of LSW (currently on Ch 21; Building a Game Plan section) I found the discussion about Separation Value of shots, and the implications for practice focus, to be particularly compelling. Although I have not read "Every Shot Counts" by Mark Broadie, I have read a couple of his papers, so the concept was not new to me, but I found the articulation on its application in LSW to be enlightening.  Aside from Game Planning, driving and approach shots (defined as those from 220-60 yards) are considered the highest SV shots and both employ full swing motion. As a result of reading these concepts, I am now tracking GIR/nGIR (and a couple of others which I'll note below) which I find meaningful because (i) it is ultimately a function of my full swing motion and (ii) clearly has a very high correlation to scoring. 

I am also tracking "Wasted Shots" (water balls, OB and unplayable count as two, tops, thins, shanks, etc as one) and total putts and 3 putts.  My 18 hole round this past Monday, I had a 57/46 for 103. This included 10 "Wasted Shots" on the front, but only 3 on the back. I had 39 putts with a total of 4 three putts (3 on the front, 1 on the back). As for GIR/nGIR, I had no GIR and 4 nGIR. Three of the nGIR were on par 4s, while one was on a par 3; I ended up in greenside bunkers on two par 3s, had a miss hit on a third (leaving the ball 30 yards short on a 170 yard hole) and a water ball (although I did hit the green with my third shot) on the remaining par 3.  

What did I learn from these stats? 

  1. I need to spend much more time on my full swing motion which should reduce wasted shots and increase GIR/nGIR, and
  2. Putting work, focusing on line (I'll probably take an Aimpoint lesson) and speed. 

Isn't LSW a great book?    

Total putts by themselves is useless.   If I have 18 nGIR and 1 putt every green, did I have a great putting day or a poor approach shot game?   (Exaggerated, I know).   I would be beneficial to know the distance of the first putt to help you determine your approach shot accuracy.   

When working on your putting, speed should be the priority although all aspects of bead, read and speed should be practiced.   

Working on reducing your penalty strokes is great but that is usually a subset of the full swing and approach shot practice.   

You're on the right track.   Good luck.

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23 minutes ago, Bob M said:

I am also tracking "Wasted Shots" (water balls, OB and unplayable count as two, tops, thins, shanks, etc as one) and total putts and 3 putts.  My 18 hole round this past Monday, I had a 57/46 for 103. This included 10 "Wasted Shots" on the front, but only 3 on the back. I had 39 putts with a total of 4 three putts (3 on the front, 1 on the back). As for GIR/nGIR, I had no GIR and 4 nGIR. Three of the nGIR were on par 4s, while one was on a par 3; I ended up in greenside bunkers on two par 3s, had a miss hit on a third (leaving the ball 30 yards short on a 170 yard hole) and a water ball (although I did hit the green with my third shot) on the remaining par 3.  

Not all 3 putts are the same. What if you have an 80-FT putt. Really, getting the ball inside of 8-FT is a good putt. At 8-FT, you have a 50% chance of making the 2nd putt (by PGA Tour standards).  That is why strokes gained is powerful. From 80-fT the expected strokes is 2.34, Almost the same hitting a shot from the fairway at 20 yards. If you hit a putt to 6-FT, then you had a net zero strokes gained. 

For putting, I kind of just know if I am putting well. I tend to practice lag putting, and inside 15-FT putting. Its more of a mental note, rather than writing the stats down. I know I will three putt once in a while. 

 

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22 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Not all 3 putts are the same. What if you have an 80-FT putt. Really, getting the ball inside of 8-FT is a good putt. At 8-FT, you have a 50% chance of making the 2nd putt (by PGA Tour standards).  That is why strokes gained is powerful. From 80-fT the expected strokes is 2.34, Almost the same hitting a shot from the fairway at 20 yards. If you hit a putt to 6-FT, then you had a net zero strokes gained. 

For putting, I kind of just know if I am putting well. I tend to practice lag putting, and inside 15-FT putting. Its more of a mental note, rather than writing the stats down. I know I will three putt once in a while. 

 

I go by the "Dammit" rule for putting.  You know when you miss a putt you should have made.  And then you utter it.   5 "Dammits" a round puts me in the "Crap" category for putting.  Zero "Dammits" and I'm golden.

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I've used Game Golf to track my play and I like to break my stats down into the trends over various time periods.
The charts I create quickly identify areas of my game which I need to address.
I track almost everything except FIR,
I break down each category into viable information which reflect all aspects of play.
I can quickly update my stats reviewing the round from the Game Golf dashboard.

The trends I like to see are when I trend to better play which usually occurs mid May.
I typically don't put much emphasis on early season play under adverse conditions. 

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Denny - Thanks for your input. I agree that LSW is a terrific book! I hear you about total putts, although I tend to think this stat is limited, rather than useless. Short of pacing them off, which could get pretty tedious and add to slow play, how do you go about determining the distance of each first putt? Regarding putting, I spent a lot of time over the winter using my PuttOut mat, which really is about "bead" (to some extent speed too, but limited to 6 feet). The PuttOut does nothing for "read" however. 

saevel25 - Understood about extremely long first putts. Do you have any recommendations for lag putting drills?

DMM - I love the "Dammit" approach. On Monday, I left 3 putts on the lip, burned the edge with two more and missed a 3 foot putt for par on the hardest hole on the course because I under-read the break....easily 5 "Dammits"!

 

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