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Killa

Scores Not Showing Improvement

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53 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Do you not have a smart phone? There are plenty of free apps that offer SG analysis. You are definitely taking the cake in the trolling department, or you are just at the very start of your Dunning-Kruger effect in golf. You may have been playing a long time, but I would bet you are the second dot, or close to it.

1*eqmrgQRb8YyqEPMUcZE3lA.png

 

WARNING: Completely OT

I've always loved this graph. I was a psych/comp-sci major, and it rang true. Unfortunately, I was heartbroken to learn that the studies of the Dunning-Kruger effect are likely wrong. I don't understand much of the math behind this, but many measurement scales that limit results to 0-100 are subject to an effect that creates statistical "noise" that in this case, may have not been properly accounted for.  Feel free to dig in more:

person-holding-a-chalk-in-front-of-the-c

Sophisticated research suggests that self-assessment accuracy is more stable over time than believed. The DK effect may be exaggerated.

 

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@Killa, just curious if you have any sort of pre-shot routine? Assuming the scoring disappointment is not some sort of major mechanical/physical swing issue, it could be a mental/shot preparation thing.

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31 minutes ago, chspeed said:

WARNING: Completely OT

I've always loved this graph. I was a psych/comp-sci major, and it rang true. Unfortunately, I was heartbroken to learn that the studies of the Dunning-Kruger effect are likely wrong. I don't understand much of the math behind this, but many measurement scales that limit results to 0-100 are subject to an effect that creates statistical "noise" that in this case, may have not been properly accounted for.  Feel free to dig in more:

person-holding-a-chalk-in-front-of-the-c

Sophisticated research suggests that self-assessment accuracy is more stable over time than believed. The DK effect may be exaggerated.

 

Nice going chspeed.  Thanks a lot.  Giving me way too much to read on a pleasant Saturday afternoon.  One of my degrees is in Psychology so it made for interesting reading.  I spotted a corollary.  The DK effect acknowledges that, when asked, most people overrate their IQ, the average becoming 115 instead of the proper average of 100.  I sense this is not unlike we golfers assuming that good drive we hit yesterday was 300 yards, not the 255 it actually was.  My 2 cents worth from a 75 IQ'er.

Edited by Double Mocha Man

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7 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

On topic this time. This, combined with your post about 4-5 iron and the distance you play from could mean one of two things and most likely it is a combination of the two. 1.) You aren't nearly as accurate with your short irons as you think you are. 2.) You are playing from the wrong tees, mates be damned. I find it hard to believe that there aren't more than 2 tees in front of the 6600 yarders. If so, they are doing a poor job of catering to golfers.

....

Against a 10 handicap, you also shouldn't be losing that many strokes around/on the green. Are you accurately recording your putting data (dropping pin and each putt properly or close to...I actually don't do this so don't have much room to talk)? If this app uses the standard 50 yards for short game, you could do some fine tuning there.


There are mostly only 3 tees around here, the course we are talking about has only 2 set up a mens and a ladies. The other ones have a mens, a ladies and a mens pro tee (which usually plays 7000+, the mens tees are usually the same as the ladies pro tees). 
 

I probably only moved the putts to actual distances on the last two of those 5 rounds but even by just counting putts I know I’m in a better shape then I was before as my 3 putt number is drastically down and also my putt count is down. I will start using gamegolf again and hopefully it will work long enough to get some data in (meanwhile I’m looking for a deal on a 2nd gen Arccos to replace my gamegolf). 
 

I know I’m not as accurate and that my long irons could use shelfing, that’s why sometimes I still choose to take my 7 iron instead of reaching for the 4. On the flip side there are holes where I really luck and hit two awesome shots in succession and I’m pin high at the side of the green in two from 510 on a par 5 with my driver/4iron. 
 

I guess by self analysis in this thread I came to know why it isn’t showing. The lack of a proper driving range means I don’t get the usual amount of 4 iron swings in like I did in the past where my 4 iron was my go to club from the tee so that’s where I’m dropping the shots I’m making up with my driver and around the green. 
 

well... hopefully the range reopens soon and I can hit it every day for a couple of weeks just to get dialed in. 

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8 hours ago, Darkfrog said:

@Killa, just curious if you have any sort of pre-shot routine? Assuming the scoring disappointment is not some sort of major mechanical/physical swing issue, it could be a mental/shot preparation thing.


For the last specific round I found that I disintegrated when I was on the 7th tee where you can cut the corner with the driver over the trees on a dog leg par 4. I have done it multiple times before. I pulled my driver straight at the dog leg and I made good contact and the ball took off. I was completely sure that it would be a lost ball in the woods behind the corner but the ball just straight dropped in the bunker that is 220 yards away. And instead of being relieved that I was in a playable position I was actually disappointed over the distance so bad that on the next 6 or 7 holes I wanted to crush the driver hard so I rushed every swing from that point on. And after that a friend reminded me that I rush and I started to play decent again finishing with 2 pars on the last 2 holes. 

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2 hours ago, Killa said:


For the last specific round I found that I disintegrated when I was on the 7th tee where you can cut the corner with the driver over the trees on a dog leg par 4. I have done it multiple times before. I pulled my driver straight at the dog leg and I made good contact and the ball took off. I was completely sure that it would be a lost ball in the woods behind the corner but the ball just straight dropped in the bunker that is 220 yards away. And instead of being relieved that I was in a playable position I was actually disappointed over the distance so bad that on the next 6 or 7 holes I wanted to crush the driver hard so I rushed every swing from that point on. And after that a friend reminded me that I rush and I started to play decent again finishing with 2 pars on the last 2 holes. 

Misses happen. You have to learn to shake it off and not let it affect how you play the rest of the round. I don’t start thinking about a miss until I make it repeatedly over the course of three or four holes. Then it’s a pattern and something I’m doing wrong that needs to be corrected.

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12 hours ago, knott said:

I never said I know what strokes gained statistics are. I said I don´t have access to it right in the previous post? Learn to troll properly!
It´s supposed to be added to shot scope V3 so will soon see what it´s all about.

What is it with all the aggressivity on this forum? My intuition? I mean I generally know what shots lead to me double bogey a hole or sorse. I have a pretty solid idea what to work on. Looking at my statistics from Shot Scope V3 don´t give me a clearer picture.

People are trying to help you understand what they have learned through experience. We’ve all been in your position. We’ve all thought at one time that we can figure things out on our own. But the reality is we are not as good at self-teaching as we think we are. So many of us came to this site for help. 
 

Here, people share there learning experience. We have expert instructors as forum members and owners. These instructors have done all the work in understanding not just the best ways to improve your swing, but also how to analyze your game and learn how to score better. They are trying to help you.
 

We also have members who have improved by listening to the experts here. We practice better and smarter and we play better and smarter because we learned from them. There is more to analyzing your strokes lost or gain that just thinking a bad drive cost you a stroke. That is what members are trying to help you with.

Let us help you become a better golfer.

 

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19 hours ago, FlyingAce said:

LOL😆 Golf is a very humbling game. There is no room for any ego...

I survived my quarantine! My new driver arrived just in time to start golf again. I think my hcp is going up but it should still be single digit. I play great one day and completely fail the next.

No golf shoes or clothes (I got plenty to last my lifetime), but I did order a new club to close the gap between my new driver and old 3w. It’s the TM SIM rocket 3 and it should come in next week. 

How is your game?

Hi Ace"

Huh...are you spending all your husband's money again....you're a GOOD wife to do so...😝😝

So what new driver did you buy?....I thought you were happy with your 440 cc M5?...how many degrees and what shaft is your  driver?

Another huh...why a 14* (although adjustable) TM SIM Rocket FW....when would you hit it?.....if off the deck....I'm not playing skins against you.......you must have great technique and club head speed to generate the speed/power to hit 14* off the deck.....I have been playing a 4W but I don't love playing it...IMO.....a FW off the deck to 'pure it' is one of the tougher shots in golf......did you order the stock shaft in regular?

Ya.....it's tough not to be a mental midget....at the beginning in June, I had 2 back to back rds......37/46 and 44/37....DUH.

Although I scored well my last rd....my game has only been so so...my cap still remains at 8.3.....I'd like to get it to 7 where I've normally played.

Back in Feb/Mar....I was able to demo the Mavrik in a sim along with the other top OEM drivers.....every now and again I'd get longer results when I absolutely smashed it.

I was able to try out my friend's Sub-Zero Mavrik 9* (lofted to 11* D)  with a 76 gm 6.0 PX Hzardous shaft....these specs are normally too stout for me....launching the ball low...but now that the courses here have finally dried out....the ball would roll out quite a bit more than M3...sometimes 15-20 yds and 40 yards when I didn't quite nail my M3.

I've lost a bit of distance with the M3 this year...yet back in August last year when I bought it....I hit it in spots on the course I've never been before.

I think the regular Mavrik and especially the Sub-Zero Mavrik is a low spinning head....the Hzardous shaft is also low spinning with fairly low torque.

Edited by Mr22putt

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3 hours ago, Mr22putt said:

Hi Ace"

Huh...are you spending all your husband's money again....you're a GOOD wife to do so...😝😝

So what new driver did you buy?....I thought you were happy with your 440 cc M5?...how many degrees and what shaft is your  driver?

Another huh...why a 14* (although adjustable) TM SIM Rocket FW....when would you hit it?.....if off the deck....I'm not playing skins against you.......you must have great technique and club head speed to generate the speed/power to hit 14* off the deck.....I have been playing a 4W but I don't love playing it...IMO.....a FW off the deck to 'pure it' is one of the tougher shots in golf......did you order the stock shaft in regular?

Ya.....it's tough not to be a mental midget....at the beginning in June, I had 2 back to back rds......37/46 and 44/37....DUH.

Although I scored well my last rd....my game has only been so so...my cap still remains at 8.3.....I'd like to get it to 7 where I've normally played.

Back in Feb/Mar....I was able to demo the Mavrik in a sim along with the other top OEM drivers.....every now and again I'd get longer results when I absolutely smashed it.

I was able to try out my friend's Sub-Zero Mavrik 9* (lofted to 11* D)  with a 76 gm 6.0 PX Hzardous shaft....these specs are normally too stout for me....launching the ball low...but now that the courses here have finally dried out....the ball would roll out quite a bit more than M3...sometimes 15-20 yds and 40 yards when I didn't quite nail my M3.

I've lost a bit of distance with the M3 this year...yet back in August last year when I bought it....I hit it in spots on the course I've never been before.

I think the regular Mavrik and especially the Sub-Zero Mavrik is a low spinning head....the Hzardous shaft is also low spinning with fairly low torque.

He works hard so I can enjoy life, isn’t that the whole point?🤔 LOL

I am now using a SIM Max D 9 degree (set to 8.5) with a senior shaft (Mitsubishi Bassara). I have gained club head speed with the SIM and am loving the extra distance. Aside from my driver, my next best club is the 3w but I am only getting ~180 out of it. I want a 200yd club and that’s what I got from the R3 when I demo last week (stock stiff shaft) but my arms got tired after a few swings. The rep suggested I go with regular but I think I want the same sr. shaft as my driver.

I am starting to outdrive the fairway on a few holes and that is getting me in trouble. I don’t want to move back a tee so maybe the rocket 3 will be an option on those holes. 

Are you looking for a new driver? I tried the Mavrik too but couldn’t make good contact at all and everything just felt wrong. Likewise, when my friends tried my SIM, they all said the club felt wrong and none could launch the ball in the air. Weird how some clubs work well for some but not others!

Edited by FlyingAce

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40 minutes ago, FlyingAce said:

1) He works hard so I can enjoy life, isn’t that the whole point?🤔 LOL

2) I am now using a SIM Max D 9 degree (set to 8.5) with a senior shaft (Mitsubishi Bassara). I have gained club head speed with the SIM and am loving the extra distance. Aside from my driver, my next best club is the 3w but I am only getting ~180 out of it. I want a 200yd club and that’s what I got from the R3 when I demo last week (stock stiff shaft) but my arms got tired after a few swings. The rep suggested I go with regular but I think I want the same sr. shaft as my driver.

I am starting to outdrive the fairway on a few holes and that is getting me in trouble. I don’t want to move back a tee so maybe the rocket 3 will be an option on those holes. 

3) Are you looking for a new driver? I tried the Mavrik too but couldn’t make good contact at all and everything just felt wrong. Likewise, when my friends tried my SIM, they all said the club felt wrong and none could launch the ball in the air. Weird how some clubs work well for some but not others!

1) Happy wife...happy life!😁

2) Glad to see we have a women who is a club ho....it's very rare...you are a unicorn....I thought you were quite happy with your M5....I guess you needed to exercise your husband's credit card in your self voluntary self isolation...KUDOS!

So are you taking out a club now that your TM Rocket will be in the bag?....or you gonna cheat with 15 clubs....did you also try the TM Original One as a FW off the tee....I demo'd it back in Feb with the stock stiff Diamana shaft...it felt great....and I could get balls speeds of 4-5 mph shy of my driver.

3) No I'm not looking right now for a new driver...gonna experiment to lower the loft on my M3 and experiment to lower the rpm and maybe get a bit more roll out.

I'm not surprised that your friends....I assume women...can't launch a 8.5* driver properly....heck...I'd be hitting low balls at 8.5* and I'm pretty sure I can generate more club head speed and ball speed than you....I'm now afraid to play skins with you.😝...you're a PLAYA.

Yup....different specs for different players....I demo'd the Epic Flash in 2018 with a Tensei Blue stiff shaft and it felt great...but my M3 came with the same shaft and I didn't like it...felt a bit too whippy...so I sold it.

Edited by Mr22putt

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On 7/25/2020 at 3:42 PM, Killa said:

It’s a guarantee that if I’m chipping inside 20 yards I will be in a position where 1 putt is an option while a 3 putt is pretty much off the table.

 
A golfer shooting in the 90s has an 8/10 chance of holing a putt from 5-15 feet.  If you’re accurate in your statement about your chips onto the green and putting, this means that if you can get to near green in regulation (within 20 yards, as you’ve described) you’re within an 80% chance of getting a par.
 
A tour player will hit 17/18 near greens in regulation.  Even if you only hit 50% nGIR you’d still be looking at a handicap of around 11-12.
 
Yet you’re dropping a dozen more shots… either that means you’re hitting zero nGIR (actually considerably worse), or your chipping and putting isn’t as good as you think.
 
Now let’s think about your chances of getting nGIR.  You’re playing a course 6600 yards long… 
 
There are two ways to thing about appropriate course length… the PGA of America and USGA recommend 6700-6900 yards for someone who drives 275 yards on average.  6200-6400 for someone who drives 250 yards.
 
The other is to divide the course length by 36, and see how far away that is from your 5 iron.  I’m going to guess you’re not reliably hitting your 5I over 180 yards, or your driver over 250 yards.
 
If you hit 20 balls with your driver and discarded the outliers, what would be the average length?  What about your 5 iron?  How close are they to 250-275 yards and 180 yards respectively?  If they’re a long way off (and I’m going to bet they are), the obvious and simple way to hit more nGIR, and thus to reduce your score is play off the forward tees
 
You’re always going to struggle to get nGIR if you’re playing a course that’s too long for you.  There’s nothing macho/weak about it's - it’s just how the game works.
 
So you have a short term choice - accept that your score isn’t going to improve quickly, because you’re playing a course where you don’t stand a chance of getting nGIR enough times to give you the opportunity to score, or play off the forward tees, and be pleased with your score, and your handicap inches downwards, consider playing off the middle tees.
 
Alternatively don’t worry about your score - enjoy the game, enjoy the weather, and enjoy the company and banter with your friends.
 
Of course the long term solution is to work on your full swing, so you are advancing the ball, and getting nearer to the green in fewer shots.  But that will likely take time… 

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1 hour ago, Dornenglanz said:
 
A golfer shooting in the 90s has an 8/10 chance of holing a putt from 5-15 feet.  If you’re accurate in your statement about your chips onto the green and putting, this means that if you can get to near green in regulation (within 20 yards, as you’ve described) you’re within an 80% chance of getting a par.
 

No, not even close.  The PGA Tour stat used for Strokes Gained evaluations is about 80% from 5 feet, dropping off quickly as you get further out.  50% from 8 feet, 29% from 11 to 15 feet.  Depending on the distribution of distances, I'd bet that a bogey player makes less than 30% of all putts between 5 and 15 feet.

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6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

No, not even close.  The PGA Tour stat used for Strokes Gained evaluations is about 80% from 5 feet, dropping off quickly as you get further out.  50% from 8 feet, 29% from 11 to 15 feet.  Depending on the distribution of distances, I'd bet that a bogey player makes less than 30% of all putts between 5 and 15 feet.

EDIT: I'm sorry - I meant 80% of 3 foot putts - so 2 putt from 5-15.  I was misrembering/misquoting the numbers from LSW.

Edited by Dornenglanz

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Just now, Dornenglanz said:

I'm sorry - I meant 3 foot putts - not 5-15.  I was misremembering the values from LSW.

That makes better sense.  I would have thought that 3-putt avoidance was even higher than 80% from that range, but I'm not certain enough to deny it.  :beer:

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9 hours ago, Dornenglanz said:
 
A golfer shooting in the 90s has an 8/10 chance of holing a putt from 5-15 feet.  If you’re accurate in your statement about your chips onto the green and putting, this means that if you can get to near green in regulation (within 20 yards, as you’ve described) you’re within an 80% chance of getting a par.
 
A tour player will hit 17/18 near greens in regulation.  Even if you only hit 50% nGIR you’d still be looking at a handicap of around 11-12.
 
Yet you’re dropping a dozen more shots… either that means you’re hitting zero nGIR (actually considerably worse), or your chipping and putting isn’t as good as you think.
 
Now let’s think about your chances of getting nGIR.  You’re playing a course 6600 yards long… 
 
There are two ways to thing about appropriate course length… the PGA of America and USGA recommend 6700-6900 yards for someone who drives 275 yards on average.  6200-6400 for someone who drives 250 yards.
 
The other is to divide the course length by 36, and see how far away that is from your 5 iron.  I’m going to guess you’re not reliably hitting your 5I over 180 yards, or your driver over 250 yards.
 
If you hit 20 balls with your driver and discarded the outliers, what would be the average length?  What about your 5 iron?  How close are they to 250-275 yards and 180 yards respectively?  If they’re a long way off (and I’m going to bet they are), the obvious and simple way to hit more nGIR, and thus to reduce your score is play off the forward tees
 
You’re always going to struggle to get nGIR if you’re playing a course that’s too long for you.  There’s nothing macho/weak about it's - it’s just how the game works.
 
So you have a short term choice - accept that your score isn’t going to improve quickly, because you’re playing a course where you don’t stand a chance of getting nGIR enough times to give you the opportunity to score, or play off the forward tees, and be pleased with your score, and your handicap inches downwards, consider playing off the middle tees.
 
Alternatively don’t worry about your score - enjoy the game, enjoy the weather, and enjoy the company and banter with your friends.
 
Of course the long term solution is to work on your full swing, so you are advancing the ball, and getting nearer to the green in fewer shots.  But that will likely take time… 

Like Dave said for the putting part that’s not accurate. Pro’s get up and down about 50% of the time so if I get up and down 20% that’s probably reasonable. And on average I need less than 3 strokes from nGIR. 
 

As for driving averages. Last time I was on a trackman with the driver the average carry (without outliers) was 240 and 262 total. Launch conditions were bad though 1° up and 3600 spin on average. 
 

For the 5 iron I use it on approach shots / par 3s of around 190 yards.

Thing is I’m pretty confident I’ll hit it that far and in a safe landing zone from the tee but the confidence decreases when I’m on a whacky lie. I guess I feel confident hitting up to 8 or maybe 7 iron from any lie. 6 and up is a nono from a sidehill rough  

 

 

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So after this thread I played 18 and 9 holes. 
 

On the 18 I played again a 6600 yard course and shot 94. Should’ve been 92 but on 16 the group behind us were yelling because we were supposedly playing too slow (nevermind that all 4 of their tee shots didn’t total 300 yards) and I shanked my approach into some rough where I should find it but instead of looking at the ball I looked back at them saying - and now I’ll be faster when I’m looking for my ball??! So drop and a penalty and it’s +2. Also had 2 of my longest ever drives of 306 and 312 yards total.

 

And today I played a shorter course of about 3000 yards 9 holes that is pretty narrow on all par 3s. In a perfect world I would’ve scored +1 but since I sucked I scored  +9. 3 shots OB (scored par with all 3 of the re teed shots) and 2 x 3 putt.

 

Playing 36 over the next two days, we’ll see  

 

 

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Hey, @Killa, really wish I could add something of substance but I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as many of the folks who have posted in this thread (except @Bonvivant, he don't know nothin' 😜) but I will say you're posting a screenshot of your strokes gained data inspired me to look at my own and against a 20 HC my last 5 rounds (except for the one at Whispering Woods because I didn't use GG for that round).

I'm losing 1.83 strokes off the tee (which I presume is because of penalty strokes because I hit it around 260-280 yards), 3.12 on approach (my short irons have been crap as the last two seasons it feels like the ball rolls off the face and goes severely right at least 2 or 3 times a round), but the biggest eye opener was that I'm losing 3.27 on my short game which, I presume is partially because of the ball rolling off the face but also I'm just not good at ensuring the ball gets on the green.  On the bright side, putting I'm gaining 1.85 strokes so, there's that.

Anyway, thanks for getting to me to take a look at that.  I always knew my full swing was a major issue but I never spend any time on my short game so I'll have to fit that in (with all the non-practice I've been doing this season :-$:~( 

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1 hour ago, Killa said:

Also had 2 of my longest ever drives of 306 and 312 yards total.

 

 but since I sucked I scored  +9. 3 shots OB (scored par with all 3 of the re teed shots)

 

Talking about average yardage without outliers is not the same thing as the average of your "best" hits.  Your "best" hits could actually be, and at your handicap probably are, the outliers if 3 of your 7 tee shots are OB.  Sometimes its better to use the word "typical".  What is your "typical" drive?  7 out of 10 times, where is your drive actually going?  

Its possible you think your scores should be improving because your best hits are getting better, but your typical hits are still all over the place.

Edited by bweiss711

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      (50 years old)
    2. boobiemiles
      boobiemiles
      (29 years old)
    3. ButterCuts1372
      ButterCuts1372
      (35 years old)
    4. Dombaker
      Dombaker
      (24 years old)

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