Jump to content
Travis

Tournament Handicap

15 posts / 1419 viewsLast Reply

Recommended Posts

I am in a club championship that started in early June. I was in a flight of 8 people that ranges from 10.9-11.7 indexes.  The first round was in June, the second round in late July and the semi finals in mid-September.  The finals are this Sunday.The person I am playing improved his index from an 11 to a 6 since June and I am still an 11.2.

Do you think the finals should be played off of his new Handicap or what was used in June when we were flighted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless the tournament has a rule to only use the handicap from the first round, they should be using their current handicap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 9/26/2020 at 12:22 PM, Travis said:

I am in a club championship that started in early June. I was in a flight of 8 people that ranges from 10.9-11.7 indexes.  The first round was in June, the second round in late July and the semi finals in mid-September.  The finals are this Sunday.The person I am playing improved his index from an 11 to a 6 since June and I am still an 11.2.

Do you think the finals should be played off of his new Handicap or what was used in June when we were flighted?

It's up to the Committee to decide, in advance, and publish for the competitors, what the rules are around handicaps.  What any of us thinks is "right" should be overruled by the specific rules of the competition.  Now if I'm on that Committee, I would want to use the handicap as of the date of the match, but I'm not the one making the decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

It's up to the Committee to decide, in advance, and publish for the competitors, what the rules are around handicaps.  What any of us thinks is "right" should be overruled by the specific rules of the competition.  Now if I'm on that Committee, I would want to use the handicap as of the date of the match, but I'm not the one making the decisions.

It’s kind of a weird situation, though, because the guy improved to the point that he wouldn’t even qualify for the flight he’s already in. I’m assuming the competition is gross scoring within the flight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

12 hours ago, billchao said:

It’s kind of a weird situation, though, because the guy improved to the point that he wouldn’t even qualify for the flight he’s already in. I’m assuming the competition is gross scoring within the flight.

I think you're probably right, as @Travis probably wouldn't have asked the question if he thought he was being treated fairly.  And I'm not so sure that playing gross within the flight is "unfair", it rewards a player who works on and improves his game throughout the season.  But my experience at my home club with season-long match play is that we've used the handicap as of the day of the match, rather than from some much earlier date.  Maybe @Travis will return and fill in some more of the details.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

The way I see it, you can't punish the guy for improving throughout the year.  If you do, you are opening the door for sandbagging.  That's pretty awesome that the guy was able to lower his handicap by 5 strokes over the summer.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

The way I see it, you can't punish the guy for improving throughout the year. 

How are you punishing him by asking him to play to his actual, legit handicap?

How are you not punishing the opponent if you keep the outdated/old handicap?

How is keeping the old handicap not going to encourage early-season sandbagging that allows the results to last all summer long?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

4 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

The way I see it, you can't punish the guy for improving throughout the year.  If you do, you are opening the door for sandbagging.  That's pretty awesome that the guy was able to lower his handicap by 5 strokes over the summer.  

It's not punishing him, using his current handicap would keep it fair for all players especially since he technically doesnt qualify for that flight anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

32 minutes ago, klineka said:

It's not punishing him, using his current handicap would keep it fair for all players especially since he technically doesnt qualify for that flight anymore.

It works both ways, doesn’t it? If a guy got worse over the summer and is a 15 now, playing net would mean he gets strokes. I feel a championship should be won by the guy playing the best golf and not simply because he won a few extra holes because he got strokes on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

38 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

The way I see it, you can't punish the guy for improving throughout the year.  If you do, you are opening the door for sandbagging.  That's pretty awesome that the guy was able to lower his handicap by 5 strokes over the summer.  

The only thing that would be "unfair" is to change the rules of the competition for the final match.  If they are to play based on gross score, per the rules, that's what should be done.  I don't think its the best way to set up the competition, knowing it will last for months, but it could have been done that way.  If the competition is set up to be played based on handicaps as of the date of the match, then that is "fair". The worst situation is if the Committee hasn't clearly outlined the rules around the handicaps, because if this is the first time its being discussed, their decision will put one of the players at a disadvantage, as compared to the other potential decision.

1 minute ago, billchao said:

It works both ways, doesn’t it? If a guy got worse over the summer and is a 15 now, playing net would mean he gets strokes. I feel a championship should be won by the guy playing the best golf and not simply because he won a few extra holes because he got strokes on them.

I think this is a pretty valid viewpoint, and a valid way to make the rules for the event.  These players were really close to one-another at the beginning of the season, and now one is playing significantly better.  Again, I'd make the other choice, but that doesn't mean playing straight up for the entire duration of the tournament is "wrong".  If @Travis has just now decided that he doesn't like the way the tournament was set up in May or June, I'd say he's "wrong".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, iacas said:

How are you punishing him by asking him to play to his actual, legit handicap?

How are you not punishing the opponent if you keep the outdated/old handicap?

How is keeping the old handicap not going to encourage early-season sandbagging that allows the results to last all summer long?

I am taking this as a Gross event and also reading into the OP words that it isnt fair that this guy is still in the same handicapped bracket as him, even thought the tournament started a few months ago.

Again, I am reading into this as a gross event.  

People are going to sandbag regardless, but I don't feel like this guy should not be allowed to finish out this club championship that he started months ago just because he has improved over the year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

23 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

People are going to sandbag regardless, but I don't feel like this guy should not be allowed to finish out this club championship that he started months ago just because he has improved over the year.

Yeah, sandbagging is tough, either way.  As @iacas says, a player can sandbag early in the year to start the season with an inflated handicap, which helps him if the initial number forms the basis for the season-long competition.  On the other side, a player can play well in special events, yet sandbag enough to keep his handicap static throughout the season.  So no matter how the rules are set up initially, a cheater can find a way to get an edge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, billchao said:

It works both ways, doesn’t it? If a guy got worse over the summer and is a 15 now, playing net would mean he gets strokes. I feel a championship should be won by the guy playing the best golf and not simply because he won a few extra holes because he got strokes on them.

Yes, but there are some safeguards against this. Specifically, you can set the handicap at the golfers' 6 month or 12 month "low index," and have them play to whatever their LI is at the time. This is how our club operates our match play championships, which run over the course of 4 months.

This means that the golfer who shows drastic improvement will not completely outclass the field within his flight, but the golfer whose game has fallen apart won't automatically get those additional strokes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, Big C said:

Yes, but there are some safeguards against this. Specifically, you can set the handicap at the golfers' 6 month or 12 month "low index," and have them play to whatever their LI is at the time. This is how our club operates our match play championships, which run over the course of 4 months.

This means that the golfer who shows drastic improvement will not completely outclass the field within his flight, but the golfer whose game has fallen apart won't automatically get those additional strokes.

That’s still biased against improvement, isn’t it? The guy who is now a 6 has to play as a 6 and everyone else gets to be 11 or whatever. And as @DaveP043 pointed out, there are still ways to manipulate that system for an advantage.

I think it’s fair either way as long as the rules are established beforehand and don’t change halfway through the tournament. Personally I don’t think I’d have a problem with either setup, but I’m not the one playing. If my opponent was a legitimate 11 when we started and by the time we play each other he’s a 6, then kudos to him for getting better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, billchao said:

That’s still biased against improvement, isn’t it? The guy who is now a 6 has to play as a 6 and everyone else gets to be 11 or whatever. And as @DaveP043 pointed out, there are still ways to manipulate that system for an advantage.

I think it’s fair either way as long as the rules are established beforehand and don’t change halfway through the tournament. Personally I don’t think I’d have a problem with either setup, but I’m not the one playing. If my opponent was a legitimate 11 when we started and by the time we play each other he’s a 6, then kudos to him for getting better.

Perhaps, but to a much lesser extent. Anecdotally, when tournaments use the Low Index, about two thirds of the field is playing off an index that is higher than their LI. Meaning that the guy who is playing his best golf of the year still has a significant advantage. Maybe not 5 strokes over the field, but usually 1 or 2.

And sandbagging does become quite a bit harder when using the LI. It's never impossible, of course. But you have to be a REALLY dedicated sandbagger (cheater?) to keep your index inflated above your true abilities for that length of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • Support TST Affiliates

    SuperSpeed
    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    Whoop
    FlightScope Mevo
    Use the code "iacas" for 10% off Mevo
  • Posts

    • Hello everyone I used to be active here until my place was burglarized in Dallas TX and my entire golf gear, among other things, was stolen. Following the burglary and the pandemic I lost my motivation to play golf. Last week I moved to Vegas, and today my wonderful wife ordered a new set for my upcoming birthday. It is an all Taylormade M2 set which was on discount at Dick's; my goal is to play with that product price range until I score in the 80s again. I will only buy better clubs after I consistently hit below 80, if necessary. I am now looking for good golf courses in the Summerlin area and hope to join a community where I can find likeminded folks to play with regularly. My flexible job enables me to play in the afternoons during the week and all day on weekends. Vegas has transformed a lot. The Raiders built a stadium here, residential areas have grown and lots of master planned communities were built. Nice to be back on TST, it is the best golf community on the web! Nave
    • I have just as much fun playing by the rules, as not. Hell, probably more...
    • Nice!  Olinger can get around the table!  
    • DAY 1  December 4   Due to a pinched nerve in my mid-back, I have not been able to practice for a little more than a week.  So starting again at Day 1!!  Spent a couple of hours on the range, alternating between hitting balls with my feet together (to work on balance and rotating around my thoracic spine) and working with the Swingwyde to focus on swing plane and proper cocking and uncocking of the wrists.  Then spent about an hour on short pitches... which was a total waste of time... chunking, blading, etc.  I have now decided that I need to find a new instructor to help me with this.....  now to sleep and back to the grind in the morning.  The positive part is that I am hitting my irons and full swing wedges so much better than a couple of months ago -- my swing, contact, low point, etc all continue to improve.   
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Augie
      Augie
      (62 years old)
    2. Dukes1304
      Dukes1304
      (35 years old)
    3. Mmgolfwiz
      Mmgolfwiz
      (57 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...