Patrick Reed - The Man, the Child Abuse (?), Redemption (??)

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, klineka said:

It's entirely possible (and probable) that I don't really understand child abuse, but even if he was abused, I don't think that justifies or excuses the cheating behavior

Nobody's saying it "justifies" or "excuses" it.

[phillyk]

I had to think about it for a moment after responding no.  Cheating is cheating, emotion about it doesn’t really matter.  If Reed was abused, then I feel bad for him, sure.  But, as a touring pro, you don’t get a sympathy excuse for breaking the rules. I feel like it might be sort of heartless, but everyone needs to have the same opportunity and consequence on the tour regardless of background. So my opinion of him doesn’t change.  He is a great golfer, but annoys me at times.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Cheating is cheating, emotion about it doesn’t really matter.

This is still not what's being asked. The poll isn't asking if it's okay that he cheated or something, it's asking if you feel differently about the person. The question doesn't even bring up the rules stuff.

[Darkfrog]

Yes - my opinion of him certainly changes. Knowing some people who are survivors of abuse/trauma, I know it can have a profound effect.

[Phil McGleno]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

This is still not what's being asked. The poll isn't asking if it's okay that he cheated or something, it's asking if you feel differently about the person. The question doesn't even bring up the rules stuff.

First-Dont talk for me please. Second-Youre right that this is not what I am asking.

@phillyk and others-I am not asking about the cheating, but people disliked and thought badly of Patrick long before the cheating stuff.-People were rubbed the wrong way by his Top 5 Player comment and other things.

If knowing the back story does not change your opinion of the man then I do not think you understand childhood abuse as someone else said earlier. The Tiger documentary is making other people feel differently about Tiger and Earl-Is it not? The same here.

[klineka]

10 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

@phillyk and others-I am not asking about the cheating, but people disliked and thought badly of Patrick long before the cheating stuff.-People were rubbed the wrong way by his Top 5 Player comment and other things.

I understand other people disliked and thought badly of him long before the cheating stuff, but I didn't (I didn't care enough about that stuff to have an opinion of him either way), and MY opinion of him now is pretty much solely based on his cheating, so me learning this new information about him doesn't change my opinion. Just because your (or other peoples) opinion of him is based on something else or a combination of other things doesn't mean my opinion of him is based on those same things.

I don't like him any more or any less today than I did yesterday.  

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

'd suggest neither of you really understand child abuse.

Based on your analogy with Tiger and his father I’d say you don’t either. Tiger being exposed to his father’s womanizing and Tiger womanizing is a direct observed behavior and perhaps affected Tiger’s judgment and/or behavior on fidelity. Being abused isn’t an automatic explanation for why Patrick would feel cheating during a tournament isn’t ethically wrong. Patrick abusing his gf would be a much more understanding analogy as you made with Tiger and his dad.

[phillyk]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

This is still not what's being asked. The poll isn't asking if it's okay that he cheated or something, it's asking if you feel differently about the person. The question doesn't even bring up the rules stuff.

Fair enough.  Then still no, I don’t feel differently.  I feel sorry it happened, if it did, but it doesn’t change how I feel about him.

[Vinsk]

4 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Fair enough.  Then still no, I don’t feel differently.  I feel sorry it happened, if it did, but it doesn’t change how I feel about him.

I’ve been ok with PR for the most part. I think he cheated. His history of abuse doesn’t change how I feel about him in regards to that behavior.

[Phil McGleno]

39 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Based on your analogy with Tiger and his father I’d say you don’t either. Tiger being exposed to his father’s womanizing and Tiger womanizing is a direct observed behavior and perhaps affected Tiger’s judgment and/or behavior on fidelity. Being abused isn’t an automatic explanation for why Patrick would feel cheating during a tournament isn’t ethically wrong. Patrick abusing his gf would be a much more understanding analogy as you made with Tiger and his dad.

Plz tell me where I said it excused anything he would ever do- @Vinsk. I did not.

My point is that what you experience as a child has a profound impact on you as an adult and the rest of your life. Tiger is still pretty young, he has still lived more of his life under his father influence than without.

You are clearly not a psychologist if you think that an abuser always reacts to that by abusing too.

[SEMI_Duffer]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The poll isn't asking if it's okay that he cheated or something, it's asking if you feel differently about the person.

With all due respect: That's an illogical position, IMO.  If somebody regards Reed's being abused as a child a reason to moderate a negative opinion based upon his cheating, they are implicitly moderating their criticism of his cheating.  "Well, no, it's not ok to cheat, but..."

IMO there is no "but."  A cheater is a cheater.  He's a 30-year old adult.  He certainly knows by now cheating is wrong.

But I take a very dim view of cheating.  I simply do not tolerate it.  Several times on golf forums I've seen people ask "I have this golfing partner that cheats" or "There's this guy in our league that cheats" and "what would you do?"  Personally, I'd refuse to play with them.  Period.  Even if that meant I'd have to quit a league and forfeit fees or whatever.

17 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

You are clearly not a psychologist if you think that an abuser always reacts to that by abusing too.

Correct.  My father was an alcoholic.  Statistically: This predisposes me to alcoholism, too.  Yet I am not an alcoholic.  Sometimes our parents can lead as well by being a bad example as a good one ;)

[billchao]

19 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Plz tell me where I said it excused anything he would ever do- @Vinsk. I did not.

Dude, @Vinskwasn’t even responding to you.

[woodzie264]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Based on your analogy with Tiger and his father I’d say you don’t either. Tiger being exposed to his father’s womanizing and Tiger womanizing is a direct observed behavior and perhaps affected Tiger’s judgment and/or behavior on fidelity. Being abused isn’t an automatic explanation for why Patrick would feel cheating during a tournament isn’t ethically wrong. Patrick abusing his gf would be a much more understanding analogy as you made with Tiger and his dad.

@Phil McGleno, this is true statement. 

 

28 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Plz tell me where I said it excused anything he would ever do- @Vinsk. I did not.

That was not what he said.

 

29 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

My point is that what you experience as a child has a profound impact on you as an adult and the rest of your life.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.

 

30 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

You are clearly not a psychologist if you think that an abuser always reacts to that by abusing too.

He wasn't claiming to be. Just speculating as we all are as none of us here are inside of PR's head to know why he does what he does. If you put out a poll on everyone's feelings, you prob ought not be so visceral with your reactions. 

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

With all due respect: That's an illogical position, IMO.

No it's not. Again, not gonna speak for @Phil McGleno, but the poll isn't asking about only his rules infractions. Is your entire perception of Patrick centered around only those times?

15 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

If somebody regards Reed's being abused as a child a reason to moderate a negative opinion based upon his cheating, they are implicitly moderating their criticism of his cheating.  "Well, no, it's not ok to cheat, but..."

Whole lot of "ifs" going on there. There's more to Patrick than the rules infractions.

15 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

IMO there is no "but."  A cheater is a cheater.  He's a 30-year old adult.  He certainly knows by now cheating is wrong.

"A drinker is a drinker. He's a 30-year-old adult, and he certainly knows by now that drinking is wrong. I don't care if his father and mother were both drunks, and his grandparents."

And again, there's more to Patrick than just the rules infractions. But apparently, not to many of you, since that's all you want to talk about.

15 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

But I take a very dim view of cheating.  I simply do not tolerate it.  Several times on golf forums I've seen people ask "I have this golfing partner that cheats" or "There's this guy in our league that cheats" and "what would you do?"  Personally, I'd refuse to play with them.  Period.  Even if that meant I'd have to quit a league and forfeit fees or whatever.

:sigh:

And @Vinsk, though you were replying to me, @Phil McGleno kinda says it.

---

What I'm learning? People know or see very little about Patrick, and they see only that he breached the rules a few times. I don't stand for cheating, either, but "cheating" does not encompass even a small percentage of what Patrick Reed is as a person.

[Vinsk]

34 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

You are clearly not a psychologist if you think that an abuser always reacts to that by abusing too.

Did I say that? No. It’s  actually a dumb question really. Does my opinion of Reed change knowing he had an abusive childhood? Is there some compassion now where there may have not been before? Certainly.

My opinion of Patrick is that he’s a fiery competitor, a passionate player and has displayed what I consider cheating, which is unfortunate. This opinion is not affected in any way having an abusive childhood. My opinion on Reed isn’t changed, my sentiment towards him is.
 

 

[Phil McGleno]

7 minutes ago, woodzie264 said:

He wasn't claiming to be.

Which is why I used the word IF.

7 minutes ago, woodzie264 said:

If you put out a poll on everyone's feelings, you prob ought not be so visceral with your reactions. 

You assume too much @woodzie264. I am not being visceral here. Relax.

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

Did I say that? No. It’s  actually a dumb question really. Does my opinion of Reed change knowing he had an abusive childhood? Is there some compassion now where there may have not been before? Certainly.

Then your vote is yes.

Nobody has argued that his upbringing is an excuse-AT ALL-for cheating. At best the lot of you are arguing against what I think is-Straw Man.

2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

My opinion of Patrick is that he’s a fiery competitor, a passionate player and has displayed what I consider cheating, which is unfortunate. This opinion is not affected in any way having an abusive childhood. My opinion on Reed isn’t changed, my sentiment towards him is.

You just said "certainly." So your answer is yes.

[Lugowskins]

I voted yes on this because before today I have had no feelings toward Patrick Reed whatsoever and now, if anything, I feel sorry for him (abused or not).

I have been hearing the Reed hate forever but never really understood it. I saw the cheating in the bunker video which was super scummy and just heard he was kind of unanimously disliked by his peers (I've only really been following pro golf for about a year). Seeing this thread though I decided to go and learn more and read about 12 articles about him and even though there is a lot to unpack it still seems like the amount of vitriol towards him is over the top. It's like once the internet decides you should be hated a lot of people just fall in line.

He was kicked off the Georgia team they haven't stated a reason (other than they chose not to be associated with him) but he says it was alcohol related issues. Being a 19 year old kid in college he's not the only one to have problems with alcohol and listening to a lot of podcasts recently with pro golfers there is a theme amongst them that there is a lot of alcohol consumption. He then transferred where there were claims he was cheating (something about trying to play the wrong provisional ball and forging scores) and rumored to have stolen a putter. A lot of stories but nothing proven and he denies it all which makes me at least question the validity of them. 

When he goes pro he wins a few tournaments and in an interview he says he's a top 5 player in the world. Why this is a reason to hate him I don't know but it seems to be brought up in every article. It's almost impossible to be great if you don't have that belief in yourself I have 0 issue with brash cocky statements like this. He is apparently caught on hot mics cursing constantly, again I couldn't care less. He has been caught saying a gay slur at himself on a hot mic which I read his apology and it sounded legitimate to me and didn't see any other instance of it. The golf community has forgiven Justin Thomas pretty quickly for him doing the same thing recently. He apparently made some comments after the last Ryder Cup people didn't like when I look at what he said it made sense him and Spieth had been pretty dominant together so he didn't see why they would split them up. Seems like because it was already decided he should be disliked so his comments need to be viewed negatively. 

I have grown very wary of listening to media narratives regarding people. It seems to me like Patrick is a brash, cocky, socially awkward, dislikable guy who is just fine with being labeled the villain of the golf world. I'm just fine with people not rooting for him but the amount of people who say they "hate" someone they have never met or spoken to is gross to me. 

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Lugowskins said:

When he goes pro he wins a few tournaments and in an interview he says he's a top 5 player in the world.

Kevin Kirk gives a good interview on Jason Sutton's podcast about Patrick Reed, too. I think when he asked Patrick Reed what his goals were, what he wanted to be, it was something like "top 20 in the world." And he was still in college or something at the time.

I've never disliked a guy for saying what he thinks in this way - you have to be cocky and confident to succeed at this level, and the guy had won three times in the last like five months. He WAS arguably a top five player in the world at the time.