Too Much Sandbagging

[NM Golf]

5 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

I'm not real sure why you guys who are at or near scratch would care about playing in handicap events in the first place. 

Sometimes we don't have a choice. The course I've been play at for 20 years decided to go all net scoring. It was that or just stop playing, which is what finally happened.

5 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

The way my old group would do it is to have the big events flighted, so nobody over a 2 was even playing in the championship flight. For the smaller events, our aces didn't really give a damn. They just played to play and have fun.  If one of us hacks took the honors with all our lovely strokes, they'd be the first to congratulate the guy.

 

Seems odd to me that someone wouldn't care about winning...why play then?

5 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

The people that made the biggest fuss about sandbagging were the guys that remember when they really were single handicaps, think they still should be and can't believe it when a hacker has a good day and beats them.

No people that make the biggest fuss are people who just get tired of shooting the lowest score but not ever winning. You may not realize it, but it sucks. Shooting a really good score and not even getting a sniff of the prize money.

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

Vanity handicapping is 10x the issue of sandbagging.

You'll have to tell me how vanity handicapping is a bigger issue. Personally, I love those guys, they're money in the bank and they aren't screwing anyone but themselves.

[DeadMan]

This is why tournaments should be flighted, if at all possible. In an unflighted tournament, a high handicapper usually wins, and low handicaps grumble. It’s also harder to sandbag when you’re a low handicapper. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

If I posted this, I’d probably gotten a warning for being off topic or points for trolling haha.

Uhm, no. I just doubt you’re actually competitive without strokes.

1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

When he said “worse,” I thought he meant of degree not amount. 

I didn’t say “worse.”

59 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

You'll have to tell me how vanity handicapping is a bigger issue.

Explained already. I'm saying there are 10x the number, not that it's a "problem" for those who can beat them out of money. There are far more vanity cappers than actual sandbaggers.

[boogielicious]

12 hours ago, Carl3 said:

If a 36 handicapper gets a par on a 140 yard par 3, you need to get a hole in one to tie.

This is a particularly unique scenario. It could happen, but odds are low. A 36 HC has trouble just getting off the tee. In another scenario, a scratch golfer is going to par or birdie a long par 5 often. A 36 HC may get a double if their lucky. So scenarios go both ways. The system is allowing for even competition between levels and it is pretty fair if folks have verified handicaps.

[mcanadiens]

9 hours ago, NM Golf said:

Seems odd to me that someone wouldn't care about winning...why play then?

15 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

Because they enjoy playing golf and they like to be sociable.

It isn't like our events ever had big money attached to them. So some of these scramble or member/guest things weren't really that big a deal to them.  The Club Championship was, of course, a different sort of thing.

Knowing those guys, they'd make it interesting for themselves anyway.

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

This is a particularly unique scenario. It could happen, but odds are low. A 36 HC has trouble just getting off the tee. In another scenario, a scratch golfer is going to par or birdie a long par 5 often. A 36 HC may get a double if their lucky. So scenarios go both ways. The system is allowing for even competition between levels and it is pretty fair if folks have verified handicaps.

Scott, gonna disagree with you here.

• It only takes a few 36s to make it "likely" (> 50%) that one of them will make a par on a par three of 140 yards. I don't remember the exact number but I think it's high single digits.
• The same applies to a par five, though the number changes slightly. I can't tell you how often I had to make a birdie just to quash a skin in my own GROUP when I played the skins games with the guys at Lake View.

Thing is… the handicapping system works really really well for head-to-head matches. Me vs. you. The lower handicapper will win slightly more than 50% of the time. 50% when it's a 9 vs. a 10, something like 52% when it's a 3 vs. a 13… stuff like that. Close enough that it's basically even, but there's a slight advantage still to being better, overall/in general.

That advantage is completely flipped and expanded when you're talking about games like:

• skins games
• Stableford
• team games/fourball
• etc.

One-on-one, handicapping is awesome.

At almost everything else, everyone should be playing off a percentage. Anywhere from 85% to about 65%.

[ncates00]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

I just doubt you’re actually competitive without strokes.

I know my game and what I shoot. “Winning” because I get strokes isn’t really winning. I handicap things for my kids, e.g., giving them a head start on a race, not playing 100%, etc. but not with golf. If that means I shoot 77 or 85 to a buddy who’s off +1, and I lose, so what? It’s golf. Golf isn’t my life; it’s a game I enjoy playing. I’m not out there trying to win stuff or make money. I make plenty of money at my real job—thank God. 

*good, not plenty. All of us are underpaid haha. 

[Bucki1968]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

That advantage is completely flipped and expanded when you're talking about games like:

• skins games
• Stableford
• team games/fourball
• etc.

One-on-one, handicapping is awesome.

I agree with this 100%. I'll just stick to the non-handicap events (or flights). As far as "not caring about winning"...hell yes I care. That's why I play in tournaments. I want to win. I want to compete.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

Golf isn’t my life; it’s a game I enjoy playing. I’m not out there trying to win stuff or make money.

Then why did you stop playing in hcp tournaments? You don’t care about winning so why do you care if you ‘lose’ to a guy who got strokes?

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Then why did you stop playing in hcp tournaments? You don’t care about winning so why do you care if you ‘lose’ to a guy who got strokes?

Seriously.

And context matters.

[ncates00]

20 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

You don’t care about winning so why do you care if you ‘lose’ to a guy who got strokes?

I guess to answer your question more directly though: I just don’t like the idea of giving or taking strokes. Just count the strokes and that’s it. I get the concept about different abilities, ages, and all that; I just don’t play that way when I can help it. There’s no satisfaction in winning that way. You didn’t really win. It was only because of the adjustment. As I’ve said previously, it’s not any one else’s fault that another is any better or worse than another golfer. 
 

I know it’s not the same thing, but it’s akin, to me, to a friend of mine who basically plays preferred lies all the time. Hell prop the ball up in the rough, and he gives himself short putts all the time. It just bothers me when he says he shot a certain score when I know he didn’t. Lying to yourself doesn’t help. I know it’s not the best comparison to handicapping, but in a strained way, they’re similar to me. 

[StuM]

32 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I guess to answer your question more directly though: I just don’t like the idea of giving or taking strokes. Just count the strokes and that’s it. I get the concept about different abilities, ages, and all that; I just don’t play that way when I can help it. There’s no satisfaction in winning that way. You didn’t really win. It was only because of the adjustment. As I’ve said previously, it’s not any one else’s fault that another is any better or worse than another golfer. 
 

I know it’s not the same thing, but it’s akin, to me, to a friend of mine who basically plays preferred lies all the time. Hell prop the ball up in the rough, and he gives himself short putts all the time. It just bothers me when he says he shot a certain score when I know he didn’t. Lying to yourself doesn’t help. I know it’s not the best comparison to handicapping, but in a strained way, they’re similar to me. 

Handicaps reward "Improvement" and "Having a better than average round" and do make for more fun competition.   Handicaps have been used in bowling leagues, same as golf, and I never hear anybody complaining about it in league bowling.  Our golf league has golfers of many different ages & skills.  We have one, age 88, that could never compete on gross against some of the younger guys that simply hit it much longer than he can.  Even from the forward tees he is at a disadvantage.  The handicap allows him to "Compete" and have chance of winning whereas with only "Gross Score" he would never stand a chance.  Also, we have newer golfers that simply have not developed yet and this gives them a shot a competing to make it fun for them as they develop their game.  Most handicaps are such that if a High-capper and a Low-capper compete and both shoot their normal score then the low-capper usually wins since most HCs are not "100%".

Handicap is not the same as "Preferred Lies", not even close to being the same.  If a player is "Fluffing Up" or "Rolling" the ball to get better lies they are cheating.  If playing casual, then I do not care what they shoot (I am playing against myself) and will not say anything.  If in league play I will call them out.

[ncates00]

2 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

I agree with this 100%. I'll just stick to the non-handicap events (or flights). As far as "not caring about winning"...hell yes I care. That's why I play in tournaments. I want to win. I want to compete.

I see your point, but I’m not as good of a golfer as you. I’ve not got par or broken par for 18 (I’ve done both for 9 though). 

[jsgolfer]

Our tournaments are flighted and then there are gross and net prizes in each flight. We even use flighting for our regular and senior club championship for those who don't make it into the championship flight.

[KMP]

IMO sandbagging is a relatively isolated issue at clubs with effective handicap committees, and/or members that know each others abilities and self-enforce the handicap system. Personally, I would not enter a "gross only" event, nor would I be interested in playing in a competition with a reputation of rampant sandbagging or cheating (like a recent Spark event where you can declare a handicap and turn in an easy -11 nine hole score; now that's fun golf eh?). On the converse I know many people that abhor handicaps as well. Understand the probabilities and make your decision.

[Carl3]

7 hours ago, boogielicious said:

This is a particularly unique scenario. It could happen, but odds are low. A 36 HC has trouble just getting off the tee. In another scenario, a scratch golfer is going to par or birdie a long par 5 often. A 36 HC may get a double if their lucky. So scenarios go both ways. The system is allowing for even competition between levels and it is pretty fair if folks have verified handicaps.

Ah, but this is a sandbagger's thread, so a 36 handicapper getting a par is a high probability 😀

[Bucki1968]

Okay, so it turns out we do have a handicap committee. Three on the committee are part of the infamous “tank these last few holes” group! 😒

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

Okay, so it turns out we do have a handicap committee. Three on the committee are part of the infamous “tank these last few holes” group! 😒