Jump to content
IGNORED

Is Phil the 3rd Best Player of All Time?


DeadMan
Note: This thread is 1003 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator
2 hours ago, Big Lex said:

I think it helps everyone.

That’s like saying auto-tune helps the great singers as much as it helps the bad singers.

It’s just not true.

  • Like 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

28 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Tour level players don’t mess with their swings like we do. At least not ‘carelessly.’ They can bring the face to the ball pretty damn accurately almost every time. I think the small margin of mis-hits corrected with technology are helping the lesser talented.

I read somewhere that many tour players can swing harder than they do during competitions because the loss in accuracy is not worth it. If that is not true then it does change things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

In the end, tech has helped people who don't strike the ball as good as other golfers. 

this ^^.    Very few hit the ball 300 yds when Tiger started.   Most do now with newer tech and fitting.   When Tiger started, he was hitting driver 8 iron into greens where other good pros were hitting driver 4 iron.   Distance is a skill and newer tech has narrowed the gap.

From the land of perpetual cloudiness.   I'm Denny

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Let's not forget about the modern ball. My buddy on the tour went from Taylor Made first gen metal with balata Titleist 90 and gained 15 yards in a few years with 2nd Gen metal and newer ball. I want to say @1996 to 2001 we saw some big jumps. 

Cobra LTDx 10.5* | Big Tour 15.5*| Rad Tour 18.5*  | Titleist U500 4-23* | T100 5-P | Vokey SM7 50/8* F, 54/10* S, SM8 58/10* S | Scotty Cameron Squareback No. 1 | Vice Pro Plus  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


1 hour ago, dennyjones said:

this ^^.    Very few hit the ball 300 yds when Tiger started.   Most do now with newer tech and fitting.   When Tiger started, he was hitting driver 8 iron into greens where other good pros were hitting driver 4 iron.   Distance is a skill and newer tech has narrowed the gap.

Tiger was always renowned for working out a lot relative to others and that gap has definitely narrowed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


3 hours ago, Big Lex said:

Can we all agree that if Phil wins at Torrey, he is without question #3 all time? 

Yes! 

Cobra LTDx 10.5* | Big Tour 15.5*| Rad Tour 18.5*  | Titleist U500 4-23* | T100 5-P | Vokey SM7 50/8* F, 54/10* S, SM8 58/10* S | Scotty Cameron Squareback No. 1 | Vice Pro Plus  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

If we take a really broad view, it's almost certain that technology helps better players more than poor players.

The opposite.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

yet the average club golfer is no better than he's been in 50 years, probably

Also wrong.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

I think if we could reverse Jack and all his competition with Tiger and all his - reverse the eras - Jack might dominate more than he did in his day, because of the equipment and how it would reward his superior technique. 

No. He would not. He would win less often.

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

If comparing PGA Tour players to 30 handicap golfers, maybe. 

If comparing Elite PGA Tour players to the bottom half of the PGA Tour, then no.

QFT.

Many other good points, @saevel25.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

True, but I would be shocked if he wasn't a top 50 player today.

Oh my, a top 50 versus what he was in his time?

He would have won less frequently, less often, less in total. Likely significantly so.

3 hours ago, Big Lex said:

Let's say Deane Beaman's average error is 6% off perfect. Let's say Jack's was 2% off perfect. Now imagine a club which gives you a 2% correction. Now, Jack's errors have all been converted to perfect shots, while Beaman is still averaging a 4% error.  Who's score will benefit more?

That's not how that works.

3 hours ago, Big Lex said:

There are just too many variables to deceive ourselves into thinking we can properly account for them all.

It's not complicated. You look at the players and who they played against and their records. And then you adjust them as you see fit to determine what you think.

Players can only beat the people they played against, but if they only managed to do it 8 times in majors and 39 times in all PGA Tour events 50 years ago, you can value those numbers differently than 6 and 45 today (or whatever the numbers are).

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, TourSpoon said:

Yes! 

Personally, I don't think he has to win another major to be considered #3. It would be icing on the cake so to speak, but I don't think he needs it to be #3.

Thomas Gralinski, 2458080

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, Billy Z said:

Personally, I don't think he has to win another major to be considered #3. It would be icing on the cake so to speak, but I don't think he needs it to be #3.

Think you would say it is what removes any question about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


7 hours ago, Vinsk said:

But the advantage of hitting the sweet spot is less than the advantage that lesser ball strikers gain with the more forgiving miss. They’re ‘poor ball striking’ is less a disadvantage due to the technology.

Exactly.

Anyone who played in the 70s knows that drives they sometimes hit these days high on the toe that go a good distance but right (for a RH player)  would have just been disastrous with a laminated or persimmon or maple driver. When the new drivers came in, the huge advantage players like Norman had off the tee evaporated because everyone suddenly had a larger margin of error off the tee. Being able to consistently hit it dead centre wasn't the advantage it once was.

  • Like 1

In the race of life, always back self-interest. At least you know it's trying.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


9 hours ago, Shorty said:

Exactly.

Anyone who played in the 70s knows that drives they sometimes hit these days high on the toe that go a good distance but right (for a RH player)  would have just been disastrous with a laminated or persimmon or maple driver. When the new drivers came in, the huge advantage players like Norman had off the tee evaporated because everyone suddenly had a larger margin of error off the tee. Being able to consistently hit it dead centre wasn't the advantage it once was.

Norman…great example since he was one of if not the best driver when this tech transition took off.

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I vote Hogan for 3rd best. More majors than Mickleson. More wins than Mickleson. Better win percentage, all interrupted by a World War and a near life ending car crash.

Stevie T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
1 minute ago, Beastie said:

I vote Hogan for 3rd best. More majors than Mickleson. More wins than Mickleson. Better win percentage, all interrupted by a World War and a near life ending car crash.

🤦‍♂️

And 18x > 15y too, right? 🙂

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 minute ago, iacas said:

🤦‍♂️

And 18x > 15y too, right? 🙂

Nope. I did think that, but I’m prepared to change my views and I did, partly based on what I have read on here, in relation to comparative strength of fields etc. So I rate Tiger #1 and comfortably so then Jack. But Hogan has 50% more wins and 50 % more Majors than Phil. I don’t think the delta in field strength tilts enough to Phils favour

Stevie T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

10 minutes ago, Beastie said:

Nope. I did think that, but I’m prepared to change my views and I did, partly based on what I have read on here, in relation to comparative strength of fields etc. So I rate Tiger #1 and comfortably so then Jack. But Hogan has 50% more wins and 50 % more Majors than Phil. I don’t think the delta in field strength tilts enough to Phils favour

45/64 = 70% of Hogans PGA Tour win total
6/9 = 66% of Hogans Major win total

You can probably throw out 3 of his majors just because the PGA Championship was match play, and no one from the US hardly ever played The Open during Hogan's time. 

I put Phil's majors as significantly more impressive major victories. 

If you look at some of his wins. He played in a four-ball tournament. I am almost to the point of saying that his 45 wins are significantly more impressive than Hogans 64 wins. 

  • Upvote 1

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

12 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

45/64 = 70% of Hogans PGA Tour win total
6/9 = 66% of Hogans Major win total

You can probably throw out 3 of his majors just because the PGA Championship was match play, and no one from the US hardly ever played The Open during Hogan's time. 

I put Phil's majors as significantly more impressive major victories. 

If you look at some of his wins. He played in a four-ball tournament. I am almost to the point of saying that his 45 wins are significantly more impressive than Hogans 64 wins. 

3/6 =50%
19/45=42%
 

It took Phil 13 years on tour to win his first major. He has never been world #1. 
Phil’s a great player and I really love the way he plays golf. But the 3rd best of all time is a stretch. If he is then who do you guys think is 4th? 
 

Never mind the Super Golf League we need a time travel league. I’d pay to watch that. 

Stevie T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
2 minutes ago, Beastie said:

He has never been world #1.

Neither was Hogan. 😄

3 minutes ago, Beastie said:

If he is then who do you guys think is 4th? 

If it's not Hogan in third I think most people would put him fourth.

FWIW I think I'd barely put Hogan as third ahead of Phil, and some of my reluctance AND indulgence there is due to the stupid "Hogan Mystique."

He played against very weak fields. Much weaker than even Jack.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 minute ago, Beastie said:

3/6 =50%
19/45=42%

Where did you get these numbers? Unless you are manipulating the data for your argument? 

Screen Shot 2021-06-09 at 3.01.43 PM.png

2 minutes ago, Beastie said:

It took Phil 13 years on tour to win his first major. He has never been world #1. 

Doesn't matter. # of wins, # of majors, strength of competition. 

 

 

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1003 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • I did read the fine print tonight. It said replace with “similar features & function”.  8 yeas ago my purchase had features that today are available on the lower end models and the current version of my model has more “bells & whistles” than what I got 8 years ago.  So I am thinking they honored the agreement and I can’t argue the offer. since getting a credit for the full purchase price all I am really out over the past 8 years was the cost of the extended warranty, which was less than a low end  treadmill would have cost me. now the question is which model to replace with.  I’ll stay with Nordic Track or I forfeit the $1,463 credit so I will get Nordic Track.  And they honored the warranty and were not hard to work with which is a plus.
    • Generally speaking, extended warranties are a terrible deal and should almost always be avoided. They are a huge profit center for the companies that offer them, which should tell you almost everything you need to know about how much value most consumers get when purchasing them.  This is correct, and the old adage applies - only buy insurance when you can't afford the loss. This usually doesn't apply to most consumer goods.  To your second question, no I don't believe the offer is fair. They are replacing it, but it is not being replaced at "no cost to you". Since the amount being disputed (over $500) is non-trivial, I would probably push the issue. Don't waste your time on the phone with a customer service agent or a supervisor. They have probably given you all they have the authority to do. Rather, I would look at the terms of your agreement and specifically legal disputes. The odds are you probably agreed to binding arbitration in the event of a dispute. The agreement will outline what steps need to be followed, but it will probably look something like this.  1. Mail the Nordic Track legal department outlining your dispute and indicate you are not satisfied with the resolution offered.  2. Open up a case with the AAA (American Arbitration Association), along with the required documentation. 3. Wait about 4-5 weeks for a case to be opened - at which point someone from Nordic Track's legal department will offer to give you the new model at no cost to you.  They certainly don't want to spend the time and energy to fight you over $500. 4. Enjoy your new Nordic Track at no cost to you. I recently entered binding arbitration against a fairly large and well known company that screwed me over and refused to make it right. In my demand letter, I made a pretty sizeable request that included compensation for my time and frustration. Once it hit their legal department, they cut me a check - no questions asked. It was far cheaper to settle with me than to send their legal team to defend them in the arbitration.
    • I never thought of looking at it on multiple purchases like you said.  Yes, the extended may help me on 1 or 2 items but not the other 5 or 6.
    • Day 84 - Forgot to post yesterday, but I did some more chipping/pitching.    Back/neck were feeling better today, so I did a much overdue Stack session. 
    • Wordle 1,013 4/6 ⬛⬛🟩🟨⬛ 🟩⬛🟩⬛🟨 🟩🟩🟩⬛⬛ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...