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Weird Putter Significantly Improved My Putting


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(Wish I knew how to post pictures, attached link of club below)

This winter I dedicated all my practices to short game. I read the book "Master of the short game" in which I learned about center shafted putters. I found this VERY strange looking club and decided to give it a test. Before I used a triple track double wide putter which I struggled mostly with the very short near gimme putts. Now with the shaft in the rear center, the weight pulls the club through the stroke more than a traditional putter. I see the most improvement on the 5ft and in shots. I can confidently say I am a really great putter. I practice it more than anything and get more excited about sinking putts rather than crushing drives. This putter significantly improved my scores and brought down my anxiety on short putts. I do not work for Odyssey nor do I even like Callaway for senseless reasons, But I highly advise any golfer who struggles with short putts to give this thing a few strokes the next time you see it in the golf shop. 

 

https://www.golfgalaxy.com/p/odyssey-stroke-lab-black-seven-toe-up-putter-20odymstrklbblkbgptr/20odymstrklbblkbgptr

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I am not sure what benefit it gives. I know that color scheme, alignment lines, and offset all effect the way you aim the putter. More alignment lines tend to cause people to aim left more. I think more offset tend to have people aim left more. 

I would think, it might be an alignment issue. It could also effect how the putter will open and close during the stroke.

I think it would make the putter feel less stable for me.  

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2 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I am not sure what benefit it gives. I know that color scheme, alignment lines, and offset all effect the way you aim the putter. More alignment lines tend to cause people to aim left more. I think more offset tend to have people aim left more. 

I would think, it might be an alignment issue. It could also effect how the putter will open and close during the stroke.

I think it would make the putter feel less stable for me.  

I think you are talking about the putter I previously used. The new putter which I attached does not have the triple track lines. The benefits of the shaft being in the center is it reduces the amount of *arc* the club face makes. Makes it possible to bring the head straight back and straight forward. It takes away focusing on striking the ball when the club face is centered as the club face does not open and close as much since the center of gravity is more towards the center. 

It very well make the putter feel less stable. It may make the putter feel more stable. If you are considering switching putters, I am just saying this one may be worth giving a few strokes on the store putting green while trying others. 

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1 minute ago, wakefield724 said:

I think you are talking about the putter I previously used.

I think he's talking pretty generally. More lines don't make anything "easier to align" and often make things tougher to align for various golfers.

1 minute ago, wakefield724 said:

The benefits of the shaft being in the center is it reduces the amount of *arc* the club face makes.

Common myth. It really doesn't do anything like that.

What I mean is that "if you think it does, then there's some benefit" I'm sure. But unless you're setting up quite differently, then the arc the putter travels on will not really change.

And if instead you meant the opening and closing of the clubface, then you're drastically over-stating how much force and torque are involved in this.

1 minute ago, wakefield724 said:

Makes it possible to bring the head straight back and straight forward.

Highly unlikely.

1 minute ago, wakefield724 said:

It takes away focusing on striking the ball when the club face is centered as the club face does not open and close as much since the center of gravity is more towards the center.

See the "And if…" conversation above. The forces and torques here are negligible.

But again, if you "believe" something is true, maybe there's a benefit to you.

1 minute ago, wakefield724 said:

It very well make the putter feel less stable. It may make the putter feel more stable. If you are considering switching putters, I am just saying this one may be worth giving a few strokes on the store putting green while trying others. 

I generally recommend people be fit for putters they can aim, and then weighted for how they feel and sense distance.

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For me putting is the one area where people an get fit for very weird putters (short/long, toe hang/face balance, heavy/light etc) which others will think illogical.  The truth is putting is more about feel than any other club in the bag.  Unless you use the Texas wedge or put on massive greens even a 5 year old kid can hit the ball long enough to hole any putt, distance wise, that feel is the differentiating factor.  For me personally I use much smaller and lighter putters than the one OP is using

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57 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think he's talking pretty generally. More lines don't make anything "easier to align" and often make things tougher to align for various golfers.

Common myth. It really doesn't do anything like that.

What I mean is that "if you think it does, then there's some benefit" I'm sure. But unless you're setting up quite differently, then the arc the putter travels on will not really change.

And if instead you meant the opening and closing of the clubface, then you're drastically over-stating how much force and torque are involved in this.

Highly unlikely.

See the "And if…" conversation above. The forces and torques here are negligible.

But again, if you "believe" something is true, maybe there's a benefit to you.

I generally recommend people be fit for putters they can aim, and then weighted for how they feel and sense distance.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you. I learned this from Phil's book which I believe he would be knowledgeable on this. It is simple physics. Most putters are toe balanced meaning their center of gravity is in front of the shaft axis. This naturally causes the face to open and close during the stroke. Most strokes open between 5-6 degrees and close at 5-6 degrees on a full stroke. Attempting to keep the face straight through the stroke would be fighting the laws of physics which creates inconsistencies. This can be easily demonstrated with the videos from the tool L.A.B. created that shows your putters natural arc. 

I also recommend people be fit for clubs. I am not an expert in any way. This is a putter that works for me for the reasons which were stated. 

1 hour ago, pganapathy said:

For me putting is the one area where people an get fit for very weird putters (short/long, toe hang/face balance, heavy/light etc) which others will think illogical.  The truth is putting is more about feel than any other club in the bag.  Unless you use the Texas wedge or put on massive greens even a 5 year old kid can hit the ball long enough to hole any putt, distance wise, that feel is the differentiating factor.  For me personally I use much smaller and lighter putters than the one OP is using

I agree with you 101%. 

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

I think he's talking pretty generally. More lines don't make anything "easier to align" and often make things tougher to align for various golfers.

Common myth. It really doesn't do anything like that.

What I mean is that "if you think it does, then there's some benefit" I'm sure. But unless you're setting up quite differently, then the arc the putter travels on will not really change.

And if instead you meant the opening and closing of the clubface, then you're drastically over-stating how much force and torque are involved in this.

Highly unlikely.

See the "And if…" conversation above. The forces and torques here are negligible.

But again, if you "believe" something is true, maybe there's a benefit to you.

I generally recommend people be fit for putters they can aim, and then weighted for how they feel and sense distance.

Erik, doesn’t every putting stroke have slight arc no matter what you do?

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48 minutes ago, wakefield724 said:

I would have to respectfully disagree with you. I learned this from Phil's book which I believe he would be knowledgeable on this. It is simple physics. Most putters are toe balanced meaning their center of gravity is in front of the shaft axis. This naturally causes the face to open and close during the stroke. Most strokes open between 5-6 degrees and close at 5-6 degrees on a full stroke. Attempting to keep the face straight through the stroke would be fighting the laws of physics which creates inconsistencies. This can be easily demonstrated with the videos from the tool L.A.B. created that shows your putters natural arc. 

I also recommend people be fit for clubs. I am not an expert in any way. This is a putter that works for me for the reasons which were stated. 

I agree with you 101%. 

Erik is an expert fitter for putting. He knows way more than you think he does. He done hundreds if not thousands of fittings and has studied this extensively. There are several thread in the Swing Thoughts section on putting. I recommend you read them.

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13 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Erik is an expert fitter for putting. He knows way more than you think he does. He done hundreds if not thousands of fittings and has studied this extensively. There are several thread in the Swing Thoughts section on putting. I recommend you read them.

 

Thanks Boogie, I think I will read them. I appreciate it. 

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52 minutes ago, wakefield724 said:

I would have to respectfully disagree with you.

Let's be clear here: you can disagree with opinions, but not facts.

Since you quoted my entire text and weren't specific, I'm not sure what you "disagree" with. So in order:

  • "More lines" don't make anything "easier to align." This is a fact, as many students will aim better with fewer lines. It's far from a guarantee that lines = alignment. This also wasn't a contention of yours, more clarification of what @saevel25 was trying to say.
  • The mind is powerful. If you think something is true, there may be a benefit to it. That's a fact too.
  • Virtually every putting stroke moves on an arc. Fact.
  • The forces and torques in the putter — whether you have a toe-hang putter or a face-balanced putter or whatever — are negligible. They're entirely overcome by just the friction required to lift the putter a millimeter off the ground. In fact, they're overwhelmed by this. Fact.
  • The only opinions I really had were that your putting stroke was "highly unlikely" to be SBST, and that your putting stroke changed dramatically just by changing putters without also changing something else, quite likely your setup. But it could have possibly been you changing something specifically to "adjust" to the new putter.
52 minutes ago, wakefield724 said:

I learned this from Phil's book which I believe he would be knowledgeable on this.

Which Phil?

52 minutes ago, wakefield724 said:

It is simple physics. Most putters are toe balanced meaning their center of gravity is in front of the shaft axis. This naturally causes the face to open and close during the stroke.

The physics here is actually a bit backward. A weight toward the toe side of the shaft axis (a "toe hang" putter) would actually "close" during the backswing, and flop open a bit during the downswing.

A "face balanced" putter shifts the CG of the putter the tiniest of amounts.

Plus, the "physics" of this is all complicated by the fact that we don't swing our putters when the shaft is horizontal to the ground, which is where you'd measure the "toe hang" anyway. In truth… and I'm not getting deep into the weeds here on this, because it could take days or weeks, but:

image.png

That shows a CG through a detached clubhead. It shows an "arrow" going down, and doesn't account for the mass of the grip or the shaft, which pulls the CG closer to the shaft in both cases, and puts them very, very close to one another. Then, you have to consider that the moment arm from where you're holding the club is basically the same size up at the top of the putter, then you have to consider that the torque is about that moment arm at very slow speeds.

When you do all the math, it turns out as I said that simply holding the putter "up" off the ground even a millimeter requires magnitudes more force to be exerted on the grip end than any "extra" amount of twisting, particularly when it's commonly thought that the putter head "opens up more" on the backswing of a putter with more toe hang, which is precisely the opposite of what you'd expect.

52 minutes ago, wakefield724 said:

Most strokes open between 5-6 degrees and close at 5-6 degrees on a full stroke.

Whoa now, not remotely accurate.

This is from a guy who's won 15 major championships on a ten-foot putt.

image.png

 

52 minutes ago, wakefield724 said:

This can be easily demonstrated with the videos from the tool L.A.B. created that shows your putters natural arc.

Oh goodness, not the Directed Force stuff again.

29 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Erik, doesn’t every putting stroke have slight arc no matter what you do?

You can force it to go SBST, or even outside the line, but generally, almost every putting stroke arcs.


I'm glad you like your putter. I imagine you probably putt better with it.

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21 minutes ago, iacas said:

 


I'm glad you like your putter. I imagine you probably putt better with it.

Thank you for the free education Iacas. People like you make great impacts on the golf community by giving us an expert analysis. Being so close together, maybe one day I can use your services for a club fitting. The book I was referring to was Phil Mickelson's Master of the short game. Tremendous read. As I mentioned in previous replies, I am not an expert. This is a putter which works for me and may not work for others. I encourage anyone who may see one in the golf shop to give it a few strokes. 

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4 hours ago, wakefield724 said:

I learned this from Phil's book which I believe he would be knowledgeable on this. It is simple physics.

:whistle:
D6F26B2B-4968-4F6C-9EA8-85E37FC64A11.gif.e6c7acdbd23adc2ac70253ca98defb17.gif

Edited by Missouri Swede
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16 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

:whistle:
D6F26B2B-4968-4F6C-9EA8-85E37FC64A11.gif.e6c7acdbd23adc2ac70253ca98defb17.gif

Hey, Phil knew the physics of that one.  If he didn't stop it, gravity would force the ball to accelerate down the hill and off the green!

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9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Hey, Phil knew the physics of that one.  If he didn't stop it, gravity would force the ball to accelerate down the hill and off the green!

At 9.8 meters per second squared!

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(edited)
6 hours ago, iacas said:

I think he's talking pretty generally. More lines don't make anything "easier to align" and often make things tougher to align for various golfers.

A truer statement has never been made about putters and ball alignment markings.

I would urge every player to try the following experiment:

Mark a line on your ball and prepare for  straights putts from say 6 and 10 feet. 

Now, lie on the green and line up the line with the hole perfectly.

Now, stand up and address those putts in your normal putting stance.

In many cases you will be absolutely shocked at how off-line it now seems. In my case, from six feet it would appear to be 1 foot to one side. At least.( I do wear glasses).

What is just as amazing is how your brain can compensate for this optical illusion/issue/reality.

I make a point of having no ball markings visible when I putt. Unless in the experiment I mentioned  it looks perfect at address, don't use lines on the ball and prettty much  ignore alignment aids on putters. FWIT I consider myself to be a very good putter.

 

Edited by Shorty
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On 6/10/2021 at 8:20 AM, wakefield724 said:

(Wish I knew how to post pictures, attached link of club below)

The easiest method is to save an image to your device. 
Jpeg or Png format are better images.

Then simply drag the file to the post or select the "Choose File" to upload it.

Then click on the " + " when the image has been uploaded.

Odyssey.jpeg

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I believe from what I have read that the real purpose of that design is to lessen the golfer's back stroke length. Shorter back stroke with more acceleration is usually going to help more golfers than it would hurt. From that you would see less face rotation simply because of the shorter stroke.

Personally I think that thing is awful looking but this shaft design idea has been around for decades and pops up every so often in a new iteration. 

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5 hours ago, Adam C said:

Shorter back stroke with more acceleration is usually going to help more golfers than it would hurt.

Ooooof. I disagree.

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