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iacas
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Leaving the reactionaries aside, I think I'm in the minority. I love the name but really don't like the logo. I love the name because it makes me think of a sort of mystical king's guard. Like, never f*** with us. It's always a mistake.

The logo strikes me as too Jesus-y.

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24 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

The problem with your argument is the fact that “Indian” is not a tribe. Rather, it’s an inaccurate and derogatory term because the folks historically designated with the moniker are not Indians. Conversely, teams named Seminoles, Braves, Blackhawks, Aztecs, Chiefs, etc. are not offensive or derogatory terms to most reasonable people, and therefore, tend to be acceptable names, unlike “Indians” or “red skins.” 

When I spoke of a tribe, I was speaking of the use of native peoples' warriors in general. When I said the statement about how the warriors are depicted, I was speaking of the (incorrect) use of the word "Indian," of the sort of silly drawing they use in the team logos, etc. 

That said, I still am not totally sure I agree that "Indians" is demeaning. It's inaccurate, but the inaccuracy is not derogatory per se; it's an example of something that is incorrect but functional because everyone knows what it means. 

All _that_ said....what matters is not my opinion, but those of the persons being inaccurately referenced, and so I defer to them )

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3 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

It's inaccurate, but the inaccuracy is not derogatory per se

A group of people incorrectly called an incorrect term for hundreds of years is likely derogatory. to most reasonable people. Not quite the same level but here is another analogy: you work with people at an office and your name is Bob. Your co-workers know your name is Bob, but they only call you Bill. That's demeaning and disrespectful, unless you have consented.

 

5 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

an example of something that is incorrect but functional because everyone knows what it means.

Functionality and common knowledge or usage do not negate the derogatory aspect of words. Black people were called a certain word, it may be construed by some as functional, and everyone knows what it means; but, that does not mean it is acceptable nor does the functionality of the word negate the improperness of the word. The same logic applies here. Please note: I am not going to engage a debate as to the hierarchy of "Indian" and the other, but merely address the underlying reasoning. 

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Once enough people decide something is offensive, you either change it or suffer the consequences.  The thing I find most interesting is the campaign it took to slowly drag enough people to that conclusion. 

Certain groups have been working on this since 1940s. I remember seeing advertisements in Sports Illustrated from the 1970s that had pennants with alternative racist-slur nicknames for the non-native races. Kind of disappointed I couldn't find a picture of it online.  As recently as 2002, the same magazine ran a story that said over half of Native Americans did not consider the nicknames offensive. It was sort of suggested that the activists weren't necessarily on the same page with the population at large. 

It's also sort of fun to look back at all the different sports teams and colleges that have changed their name and/or logo.  Stanford was one of the first, but there have been a number of others that I wasn't aware of. 

 

 

 

Edited by mcanadiens
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45 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

That said, I still am not totally sure I agree that "Indians" is demeaning.

Except that it is.

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In Michigan we have universities that are both sides of the fence.    Eastern Michigan used the name Hurons but in 1991 changed to Eagles.   Central Michigan is still called the Chippewas with the permission from the local tribe.

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6 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

You?

Nope. Not really.

But I’m not really in that group.

I’ll post it again.

23mlb-cleveland-subdolan-videoSixteenByN

After years of pressure, and amid a growing trend away from names that reference Indigenous people...

The title is “With Guardians, Cleveland Steps Away From an Offensive Name.”

There have been studies conducted by sociologists and psychologists and others in harder sciences as well.

That it’s offensive to many is not in question.

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8 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

To who?  You? I’m sure you haven’t polled everyone from that group.

Again, your logic is flawed.

There are general rules and exceptions to general rules. Moreover, exceptions do not negate the general rule on the whole, only as to particular instances of exceptions to the general rule. As it pertains to the conversation at hand, “Indian” need not be offensive to everyone in order for it to be considered generally as an offensive term. Most people within the class of people associated with “Indian” consider it, rightfully, offensive. Therefore, it is a general rule that “Indian” is offensive. Those who do not think it is offensive are exceptions to the general rule. 

This isn’t difficult to comprehend, dude.

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looks like they was already a Cleveland Guardians. An amateur roller derby team. 
 

10005900_851204331583897_286227751124320

 

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1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

Again, your logic is flawed.

There are general rules and exceptions to general rules. Moreover, exceptions do not negate the general rule on the whole, only as to particular instances of exceptions to the general rule. As it pertains to the conversation at hand, “Indian” need not be offensive to everyone in order for it to be considered generally as an offensive term. Most people within the class of people associated with “Indian” consider it, rightfully, offensive. Therefore, it is a general rule that “Indian” is offensive. Those who do not think it is offensive are exceptions to the general rule. 

This isn’t difficult to comprehend, dude.

‘Indian’ is not offensive to someone from India and it should not be. But it should only apply to people from India.

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11 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

‘Indian’ is not offensive to someone from India and it should not be. But it should only apply to people from India.

Exactly. Thanks for clarifying that point. 👍

I suppose I left that point out given the context of the conversation, but again, thanks for the catch. 

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2 hours ago, mattm16 said:

To who?  You? I’m sure you haven’t polled everyone from that group.

Iacas doesn't need to. The polling has been done by others and the general feeling is overwhelmingly clear. These titles have to go.

This is an issue that has been addressed for at least a couple of decades and it is only now that things are actually being changed, rather than merely talked about.

You don't get to say that something isn't objectively offensive because it's an issue you don't care about.

People are going to decent lengths to prove to you that it isn't a matter of opinion. The fact that YOU don't care is irrelevant.

There are a few in this thread who say stuff like "people are too easily offended" or "people are too thin-skinned". No, people care about  demonstrably negative and demeaning names and stereotypes and are supporting efforts to wipe them out. Why does that bother you?

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14 hours ago, dennyjones said:

In Michigan we have universities that are both sides of the fence.    Eastern Michigan used the name Hurons but in 1991 changed to Eagles.   Central Michigan is still called the Chippewas with the permission from the local tribe.

Yeah. Eastern Michigan is one of the ones I'll admit not knowing. Pretty weak for someone that went to Bowling Green, but they were the Eagles by the time I got there. 

Another one I never knew was the NBA Warriors. Before moving to California, the Philadelphia Warriors used a really hokey-looking Indian character. Obviously, they kept the name but changed the logo.

 

 

Really. The fact that the teams are pulling these nicknames is proof positive that people are offended by them.

If it was still a real argument, Washington Football Team would have never given up that nickname. 

The fact that they did is a case-closer.

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I talked to my buddy, 100% Navajo, about this thread.  His response was to shake his head, laugh and say “Leave it to the arrogant white man to tell us what we should be offended by…”

Just thought I’d share.  I’m sure the arrogant white men here will continue to tell him he’s wrong though…  😂

 

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2 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I talked to my buddy, 100% Navajo, about this thread.  His response was to shake his head, laugh and say “Leave it to the arrogant white man to tell us what we should be offended by…”

Just thought I’d share.  I’m sure the arrogant white men here will continue to tell him he’s wrong though…  😂

 

Jesus, it’s not just white people who are offended. Just because he isn’t doesn’t mean many more native Americans are not. This line of logic is just idiotic. 

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4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Jesus, it’s not just white people who are offended. Just because he isn’t doesn’t mean many more native Americans are not. This line of logic is just idiotic. 

I’ll pass that along to him and his people.  👍

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3 hours ago, David in FL said:

I talked to my buddy, 100% Navajo, about this thread.  His response was to shake his head, laugh and say “Leave it to the arrogant white man to tell us what we should be offended by…”

Just thought I’d share.  I’m sure the arrogant white men here will continue to tell him he’s wrong though…  😂

You really don’t get it.

Not do you realize how dumb statements like that are, apparently, because nobody would make such statements intentionally if they did.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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