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The Stack System - A Conversation on Gaining Swing Speed


iacas

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9 hours ago, iacas said:

You're quickly venturing into jerk territory.

Last year's U.S. Open winner has used the Stack to gain clubhead speed. If you want to doubt what two of the smarter guys in golf are putting out there (Marty Jertson, Sasho Mackenzie), go ahead, but results are out there if you take two seconds to look.

https://twitter.com/thestacksystem

Your guess would be… wrong for many people. You can know, historically, what your clubhead speed is. Club fittings, regular sessions on a launch monitor… etc. Heck, the Mevo+ is fairly low cost and golfers use that and know what their clubhead speed is.

I know the creators pretty well. Which is one of the reasons why I trust it. The realized results are a lot of the other reasons.

Again… Matt Fitzpatrick has used it to gain actual, real speed and distance. And win a major.

2021: 293.5, 114.37, and 169.93
2023: 306.5, 117.89, and 177.35

But maybe he just wasn't measuring before… errr… wait…

Ample amounts of evidence say otherwise. I don't know what else to tell ya.

Two points to that.

First, if you can go from swinging 100 "full out" to making 110 MPH your "full out" speed, then you can make 106 or something your "cruising speed" which can actually increase your accuracy. They've (Sasho/Marty) seen this many, many times. People go from "swinging max speed" to "swinging smoothly" but actually faster, increasing their accuracy.

Second…

Thanks for your input.

There's no one correct grip… and you just said that training aids are useless.

In that specific statement? No. In the countless hours, studies, etc. behind it? Damn straight.

Again… https://twitter.com/thestacksystem. He doesn't have to personally know them to be able to say it.

 

detest liars, Jake, so if you want to go down that road, it's not going to go well for you. You're welcome to try to find the lie here. You won't, because there isn't one.

I put products I believe in the sidebar after I arrange discounts for them. We've been long-time users of the products and things listed there, with direct personal experience and results.

I don't understand the name calling. That's immature and uncalled for. I have a different opinion than you. So what? 

Was last year's U.S. Open winner paid to say that he used this? Is he compensated in this process? If he is which I know he is, then that's not a credible argument. You know that Michael Jordan probably doesn't eat McDonalds but he endorses them. Do I really have to go over the difference between endorsements and evidence? 

You know that when I said that he hadn't measured his clubhead speed, that I wasn't referring a PGA Tour player. That was fairly obvious so don't respond as if I did. I was referring to the person that is a regular player that probably is lucky to have time to play once a week. It's just not a common thing for the average player to know these things. That's something that only serious players are concerned with or if they recently had been fit for equipment. Otherwise their focus is on more important things like trying to hit the ball and keep it on the planet. You as an instructor know this and you know that I wasn't referring to a U.S. Open winner. I know how the players on the PGA Tour go over every single detail of their game. I've spent many many hours with tour players who were monitoring their clubhead speed while they practiced. So your argument is flawed because your attempt to discredit me is not one based on fact. It's based on your deception knowing full well that I was not referring to an U.S. Open winner when I asked if they had kept track of their clubhead speed. 

The other parts of your post just make you look foolish. You aren't being objective, you are just playing devils advocate because you are all pissed off because someone has a different opinion than you. Different opinions are good, not bad. My mindset in everything is to question it. I take everything that I hear and see and try to dissect and pick it apart. I do the same with my beliefs of the golf swing or in this case training aids. You should welcome that and not act like a child and get all pissed off because someone thinks differently than you. 

Lastly, your last argument is not correct. It is impossible for everything to be equal and the only variable that changes is an increase in clubhead speed and become more accurate. It goes against Newton's laws of physics. I don't know where you came up with the sweet spot theory but I'm guessing its based on a very small sample size and you also don't have an objective point of view and are clearly trying to sell this product. So you are biased and I can't take what you say seriously. It's that simple. If you weren't trying to deceive people and you were being objective then I would hear you out, but when you have an agenda, I can't. 

Also I want to make sure I am clear in the fact that, I wouldn't have said anything if this post wasn't a commercial disguised as a post in the part of the forum labeled "instruction and playing tips".  If you want to sell something that you believe in then there's nothing wrong that. I wouldn't have said anything if that was the case. It's the deception that I don't respect and it takes away from your credibility. 

Why did you update my profile adding a member title?? I didn't add that so how did it get there? I didn't put my name there and it's not my name btw.  

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7 hours ago, ChiTown said:

@Randomgolf99 I’ll play your game. 
 

So if the Momentus came in various weights and you were given a custom training regime then your opinion would be that this would be helpful? Sounds like the only difference is that you would prefer a standard club head vs the weight assembly. Is that the only material difference in your mind?

What did you do there?
 

Let me ask you this. You have two students with identical swing traits except one can swing the driver at 90 mph and the other at 110mph. Their swings are identical in every ther respect. Fair to say that the 90mph swing wont hit the ball as far as the 110mph all things being equal. What would you tell the 90mph hitter to do to increase distance?

The momentus doesn't come in various weights and a custom training regime so this isn't relevant. 

I was choosen to help out there. It was a learning opportunity for me and I spent 3 years there. I started out setting up the different areas each day and cleaning clubs and would help out when they had private lessons. I then was able to teach during staff schools after about a year. At the McLean Performance Center I was hired as an instructor and completed the Jim McLean Certification. 

The last question you have is unanswerable because there is not enough information. I would have to see the swings and know how they are identical. There isn't a way to gain clubhead speed in the blanket way that you are asking. 

7 hours ago, klineka said:

My claim that The Stack increased my clubhead speed is based on facts. It's based on launch monitor (Mevo+) clubhead readings both before I started The Stack and after multiple programs of The Stack. 

On January 4th, prior to purchasing The Stack system, my average clubhead speed with driver was 110.2mph. On June 14th my average clubhead speed with driver was 121.4mph. That's with the same driver and shaft, the same fitness/workout routine, no major swing changes, same launch monitor, etc.

So yes, I did know exactly what my swing speed was and had been prior to The Stack and I know what it is now after completing multiple Stack programs. 

What is there to see to believe? It's a golf shaft with different weights that you screw onto the end. It's the long term usage of it and following their protocols is what makes your clubhead speed increase, not just 5 swings at a driving range.

Why don't you believe that? I am proof otherwise. With actual numbers to back up my claim.

While an increase in clubhead does not directly mean someone will shoot lower scores, that's not what your original argument was about. Your original argument stated that you don't think this training aid will work to increase your clubhead speed. I do agree that increasing clubhead speed and lowering your score are two different things, but don't start shifting the goal post.

Your claim was that this training aid does not increase your clubhead speed, I (along with @iacas's Matt Fitzpatrick example) proved with actual facts that it does in fact increase clubhead speed.

Well, the creators of The Stack system have the data from thousands of golfers who have gone through their protocols. Sasho MacKenzie highlighted some of the results recently (I forget the exact numbers they stated in terms of average clubhead speed gain so I dont want to misquote) on The Hack It Out podcast. Since you are skeptical, I highly encourage you to take a listen to that. 

I appreciate the fact that you included some actual facts but I think you are trying to sell me on something versus looking at it objectively. You are a 1 handicap so I believe you could be someone that would know their clubhead as you obviously take the game seriously. If I questioned that then I didn't look at what your handicap was. I am new to the forum and didn't see the handicaps there before. 

What I question about your statement is how could you go from January to June and not make any real swing changes? I don't believe that unless you didn't play much during that time. 

Also the post referring to Matt Fitzpatrick isn't evidence or facts if he is being paid to promote the product which I am very confident in my assumption that he is. 

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30 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I don't understand the name calling. That's immature and uncalled for. I have a different opinion than you. So what?

You basically accused @iacas of being a shill for the system. This response is disingenuous. You also accuse Matt Fitzpatrick of being a lair. Sad.

Secondly, your position is rather curious. Do you suppose elite athletes in any sport got there with doing sport specific training? If swing speed is that important for Golf, why wouldn’t you train to get faster? Sprinters in track do sprints to get faster. Same with swimmers. The list is endless.

I agree training aids can be dubious, but the evidence is there for swing speed training and you choose to ignore.
 

Scott

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6 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

You basically accused @iacas of being a shill for the system. This response is disingenuous. You also accuse Matt Fitzpatrick of being a lair. Sad.

Secondly, your position is rather curious. Do you suppose elite athletes in any sport got there with doing sport specific training? If swing speed is that important for Golf, why wouldn’t you train to get faster? Sprinters in track do sprints to get faster. Same with swimmers. The list is endless.

I agree training aids can be dubious, but the evidence is there for swing speed training and you choose to ignore.
 

You are being ridiculous. A professional athelete who endorses a product is a shill for the system??? That's not at all what I was saying and you know it. I also wasn't accusing him of being a liar. You cannot argue with the fact that someone who is paid to endorse a product isn't a credible source. 

Your example of others sports is way off. If the swimmer and sprinter couldn't stay in their lane during the race, then they shouldn't work on going faster until they can learn to run in a straight line. 

While we are on the topic of liars. I get the sense that Eric has multiple accounts here. This smells like an admin that uses multiple accounts since everyone is emotional. I call shinanagins.  

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3 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

You are being ridiculous. A professional athelete who endorses a product is a shill for the system??? That's not at all what I was saying and you know it. I also wasn't accusing him of being a liar. You cannot argue with the fact that someone who is paid to endorse a product isn't a credible source. 

Your example of others sports is way off. If the swimmer and sprinter couldn't stay in their lane during the race, then they shouldn't work on going faster until they can learn to run in a straight line. 

While we are on the topic of liars. I get the sense that Eric has multiple accounts here. This smells like an admin that uses multiple accounts since everyone is emotional. I call shinanagins.  

@iacas owns the site and is an instructor himself, so again you are way off base. You are being completely ridiculous with your antiquated opinions. Stay in their lane? That’s laughable. Not sure where you “teach” but I’m glad I never had you as an instructor. You would probably have your student work on grip for $120 and hour. 

Scott

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5 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Sure.  But, rather than pollute this thread with my meanderings on golf training aids, here: My Experiences With a Variety of Golf Training Aids

I've no idea what my handicap was or what it is.  Many of those training aids were acquired in my first, and and so far only, year playing, three years ago.  My handicap was sky-high then.  I've no idea where it'll be when I resume playing.  (Or even when I'll resume playing.  I'm not going to pollute this thread with that story, either.)

If you were polluting the thread then you would only be polluting the thread with evidence that would help your case. 

If I understand you are somewhat new to golf? Players like you are who I am trying to help. I am sure that as a new golfer, you want nothing more than to improve right? Nothing will help you enjoy the game more than getting better. I don't know what your swing looks like but I don't have to to understand that the last thing in the world you should be focusing on is increasing your clubhead speed. This is something that only a highly skilled player should be working on if they want to get better. 

Do me a favor and the next time you are on the driving range or playing a round, make a swing and swing at 50% of your normal power. I promise you that you will hit better shots immediately. The ball will go farther and straighter because you will be making better contact.  

9 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

@iacas owns the site and is an instructor himself, so again you are way off base. You are being completely ridiculous with your antiquated opinions. Stay in their lane? That’s laughable. Not sure where you “teach” but I’m glad I never had you as an instructor. You would probably have your student work on grip for $120 and hour. 

Nothing what you said is factual and you are forming your opinion on nothing but emotions. If you think the concept of having to learn to crawl before you walk and walking before you can run is an "antiquated opinion" then call me antiquated. 

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5 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Nothing what you said is factual and you are forming your opinion on nothing but emotions. If you think the concept of having to learn to crawl before you walk and walking before you can run is an "antiquated opinion" then call me antiquated. 

You’re antiquated beyond belief. I suppose you think videoing the swing is a waste of time too. I gather you teach by feel and use lots of quips from Harvey Penick’s Little Red Book during your lessons.

Its OK to have opinions, but we’re also allowed to refute those that are absent of fact or data.

Scott

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Wow you have no idea how ignorant and off you are. From the second I found out that V1 Software was invented, I went and purchased a digital video camera. I don't remember the exact year but I think this was around 2000 when I came across it. I then would record every golf tournament on TV using this camcorder and hoping that there would be a couple swings on the broadcast that would be shot from the right angle so that I could use it and add it to my swing library. I have spent more time analyzing golf swings than anyone on this planet. While most people had normal high school and college lives, I did not and I spent most of it obsessed with trying to be the best golf instructor that I could be, learning everything that I could learn.

I'm not sure why you don't think I am providing facts and data because I have done exactly that. I don't know what you mean by "teach by feel". I use video in my lessons but the students don't benefit that much from it. It's more for me to keep track of their progress. I use in my teachings "feel" vs "real" because it is true. When I give lessons, I always tell my student to "feel" like they are doing something. That works the best. It doesn't matter what is actually happening. It only matters what the student is doing and what they need to do to correct their biggest flaw. Just communicating to the student what is ideal is not going to benefit them at all. 

You probably should stop making these posts because it's just getting embarrassing at this point when you are as wrong as you are. 

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3 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I'm not sure why you don't think I am providing facts and data because I have done exactly that.

You’ve done the opposite of that. You were presented data, which you ignored, and you provided your opinion. Opinion is not data or fact. You also accused the owner of the site of lying, being a shill and having multiple accounts to torment you. 

You are embarrassing yourself and arguing without basis of fact or data on your opinion that speed training is ‘snake oil’. Your words.
 

Scott

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22 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

If you were polluting the thread then you would only be polluting the thread with evidence that would help your case. 

This thread is about, well, supposed to be about, The Stack System.  Not about my adventures with various & sundry golf training aids.  Posting here what I posted in that thread I started would have been wildly off-topic.

22 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

If I understand you are somewhat new to golf?

I am.

22 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I don't know what your swing looks like but I don't have to to understand that the last thing in the world you should be focusing on is increasing your clubhead speed.

Agreed, which is why I'm not currently trying to increase my club head speed.  I just looked in on the thread because, after I get my swing ingrained (yes, I know you don't believe in that, either), I likely will want to increase my club head speed.  I've done a bit of reading about the various swing speed training products. The Stack System strikes me as the one with the highest likelihood of resulting in success in that endeavor.

22 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Do me a favor and the next time you are on the driving range or playing a round, make a swing and swing at 50% of your normal power. I promise you that you will hit better shots immediately. The ball will go farther and straighter because you will be making better contact.

How about I just continue to train with the coaches with whom I've been training and go from there? ;-)

If you're curious: Look up threads started by me.  There's one detailing my rather unusual golf journey to date.  (Also OT for this thread.)

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1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I don't understand the name calling. That's immature and uncalled for. I have a different opinion than you. So what?

You basically called me a liar. Dishonest. A shill.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Was last year's U.S. Open winner paid to say that he used this? Is he compensated in this process? If he is which I know he is, then that's not a credible argument.

You don't know that, because the opposite is accurate: Matt Fitzpatrick has spent money to get the instruction/training/coaching.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I was referring to the person that is a regular player that probably is lucky to have time to play once a week.

One of those guys (@klineka) replied to you up-thread. I have a bunch of students who take speed training seriously. I've been helping people with it for years (SuperSpeed, Mach 3, etc.), and we measure their swing speeds. It's an obvious and critical part of the training.

This isn't a matter of opinion. Plenty of "regular" players measure their swing speeds. @boogielicious is another. @billchao is another.

You're acting like my entire position is based on Matt Fitzpatrick. You ignored the parts of my posts where I talked about average golfers, many of whom own their own Mevo+ or whatever, and know what their clubhead speeds are.

Heck, I own a GEARS system: it too tells you clubhead speed at any point in the swing. Some of my guys know their clubhead speed at P5 and P6, and when they reach their maximum hand speed (and what that number is), too.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

The other parts of your post just make you look foolish.

Something something something about name-calling. I'm quickly learning that I'm not going to give your opinion very much weight, so… if you think I'm foolish, that may be a good thing.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

The other parts of your post just make you look foolish. You aren't being objective, you are just playing devils advocate because you are all pissed off because someone has a different opinion than you.

Mmmmm, nope. Those who know me would tell you that I'm pretty much between a 4 and a 6 about 99.5% of the time on the emotional scale. It takes about 100x more than whatever you've done here to make me "pissed off." 😀

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

You should welcome that and not act like a child and get all pissed off because someone thinks differently than you.

You know what they say about assumptions. Also, more name-calling. You're winning that count, if you're keeping score.

People would have been happy to engage in an actual, honest, fair, gentlemanly conversation, but you came in guns blazing with the name-calling, the insinuations, and the "my experiences are fact" type of approach…

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Lastly, your last argument is not correct. It is impossible for everything to be equal and the only variable that changes is an increase in clubhead speed and become more accurate.

If the only thing that changes is that a player swings faster, sure. But there's a lot more involved than a player just learning to swing faster. Again, a player who swings at 100, who can learn to swing at 115, but whose cruising speed is 108 (I used different numbers earlier) may actually increase their accuracy. Sasho has a video or some stats out there about that happening pretty regularly.

Also…

Summary of the chart above: better players hit it both farther AND more accurately.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I don't know where you came up with the sweet spot theory but I'm guessing its based on a very small sample size and you also don't have an objective point of view and are clearly trying to sell this product.

Yeah, I'm pushing it SOOOO hard. My last post before you came in here recently was in early April, and said:

On 4/9/2023 at 10:18 AM, iacas said:

You're new, but you'll find I don't set up referrals unless I absolutely believe in the product(s). My reputation is not worth the few bucks I make in referrals.

Beyond that… I don't know what "the sweet spot theory" is, as the first time I think those words have been used in this topic are by you right there.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

So you are biased and I can't take what you say seriously. It's that simple.

See above for how much weight your opinion carries with me. Cool, dude.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

If you weren't trying to deceive people and you were being objective then I would hear you out, but when you have an agenda, I can't. 

.More name-calling and insinuations of lying/deception/dishonesty/etc.

And, cool, we all know your opinion now. Why keep going?

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Also I want to make sure I am clear in the fact that, I wouldn't have said anything if this post wasn't a commercial disguised as a post in the part of the forum labeled "instruction and playing tips".  If you want to sell something that you believe in then there's nothing wrong that. I wouldn't have said anything if that was the case. It's the deception that I don't respect and it takes away from your credibility.

I'm pretty comfortable with my place and "credibility" with people who have been here for more than a hot minute.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Why did you update my profile adding a member title?? I didn't add that so how did it get there? I didn't put my name there and it's not my name btw.  

What is your name?

I know a few people in Las Vegas. Maybe they've heard of you.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

You are a 1 handicap so I believe you could be someone that would know their clubhead as you obviously take the game seriously.

I have 14-handicap students who know their clubhead speeds with 7I, hybrid, and driver. Jeez. I can name ten guys in a minute who own a Mevo+ or comparable launch monitor and could give you reports with hundreds (or thousands) of shots dating back months, years.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Also the post referring to Matt Fitzpatrick isn't evidence or facts if he is being paid to promote the product which I am very confident in my assumption that he is. 

You're wrong. And, what happened between above where you said you know he is and now, where you're just assuming he is?

Let's be clear: he isn't being paid to use or endorse the Stack. The opposite is true: he paid to get the help/training/coaching.

50 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I also wasn't accusing him of being a liar. You cannot argue with the fact that someone who is paid to endorse a product isn't a credible source.

Let's be clear about that, too: you accused me of being dishonest. Of being a shill.

50 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

While we are on the topic of liars. I get the sense that Eric has multiple accounts here. This smells like an admin that uses multiple accounts since everyone is emotional. I call shinanagins.  

Oh boy. If only we had, I dunno, pictures of Scott. Or if Scott had a Member Swing thread with years of video.

Seriously? This is where you go? I mean… it's amusing. I'll give you that.

36 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

This is something that only a highly skilled player should be working on if they want to get better. 

Plus, people can work on multiple things at the same time.

19 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Wow you have no idea how ignorant and off you are.

More name-calling. Fun!

19 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I have spent more time analyzing golf swings than anyone on this planet.

🤣

19 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I'm not sure why you don't think I am providing facts and data because I have done exactly that.

Where?


I'll ask again since you'll probably skip over it above: what's your name? You've got mine (even though you misspelled it). So, what's yours?

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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If yo

15 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

You’ve done the opposite of that. You were presented data, which you ignored, and you provided your opinion. Opinion is not data or fact. You also accused the owner of the site of lying, being a shill and having multiple accounts to torment you. 

You are embarrassing yourself and arguing without basis of fact or data on your opinion that speed training is ‘snake oil’. Your words.
 

If you are going to disagree with me then that's fine but don't lie and manipulate the truth when making your point. I have used facts and if you consider what I said my "opinion" then I can clearly see what you can't break 80 consistently. 

I never said that the owner of the site is a shill and I never used the word torment. I did accuse an admin of having multiple accounts and I stand by that. 

I do think speed training is snake oil for 95% of the people that play golf. For example, you are a 12 handicap. You shouldn't be working on your clubhead speed and you would improve at a much faster rate focusing on other things. 

Everything that I have said is fact based and is not opinion. I don't understand how anyone could say that "crawling before you can walk" is an opinion, or the fact that if you do nothing different but increase clubhead speed that you will sacrifice some accuracy. Those are facts and not opinions. Do some research and understand the laws of physics and then come back to me. In fact, break 80 and come back to me. You are in way over your head and don't make up false accusations just because you are in over your head and don't understand basic concepts. 

 

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1 minute ago, Randomgolf99 said:

If yo

If you are going to disagree with me then that's fine but don't lie and manipulate the truth when making your point. I have used facts and if you consider what I said my "opinion" then I can clearly see what you can't break 80 consistently. 

I never said that the owner of the site is a shill and I never used the word torment. I did accuse an admin of having multiple accounts and I stand by that. 

I do think speed training is snake oil for 95% of the people that play golf. For example, you are a 12 handicap. You shouldn't be working on your clubhead speed and you would improve at a much faster rate focusing on other things. 

Everything that I have said is fact based and is not opinion. I don't understand how anyone could say that "crawling before you can walk" is an opinion, or the fact that if you do nothing different but increase clubhead speed that you will sacrifice some accuracy. Those are facts and not opinions. Do some research and understand the laws of physics and then come back to me. In fact, break 80 and come back to me. You are in way over your head and don't make up false accusations just because you are in over your head and don't understand basic concepts. 

 

Hahaha! What facts? Where? I could waste my time going back and quoting you, but we all know that would not end well for you. Give up dude! Crawling before your walk is opinion. Facts have data behind it, like the reports that @iacas posted with actual data. You have presented no data. It’s just your opinion. Get that straight. Opinion is not fact.

Scott

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I don’t really have a dog in this because I don’t own The Stack System but the irony of a person hiding behind internet anonymity attacking another person who puts his real name out there (and thus his reputation on everything he posts) over credibility is hilarious.

Pretty good resumes on these two snake oil salesmen:


The Founders Dr. Sasho MacKenzie, Co-Founder @SashoMacKenzie Golf’s foremost biomechanist, Dr. Sasho...

I’m not sure how someone could claim to be interested in learning as much as possible about the golf swing could possibly not know who Dr. Sasho MacKenzie is.

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Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I appreciate the fact that you included some actual facts but I think you are trying to sell me on something versus looking at it objectively. You are a 1 handicap so I believe you could be someone that would know their clubhead as you obviously take the game seriously. If I questioned that then I didn't look at what your handicap was. I am new to the forum and didn't see the handicaps there before. 

What I question about your statement is how could you go from January to June and not make any real swing changes? I don't believe that unless you didn't play much during that time. 

I'm not trying you sell you on anything. You asked for facts to back up my position, I gave them. 

You have yet to give any actual facts to back up your claims that speed training doesn't transfer over to an actual driver so I'll ask for it now. Please provide multiple examples that back up your side since multiple examples have been backed up that support my opinion.

My handicap is irrelevant to whether or not I would know my clubhead speed. Anyone with a couple hundred bucks can get a launch monitor that tells them their clubhead speed regardless of if they are a +5, a 1, or a 31 handicap.

Let's recap what's happened so far

  1. You come on here and make a claim that training aids don't work and that speed training doesn't transfer over to a driver clubhead
  2. People including myself make claims (without facts or numbers) as to why we disagree with you
  3. You (rightfully so) ask for numbers to support our claims
  4. We provide you with facts and numbers that support our claims (keep in mind you have yet to provide any facts that support your side)
  5. You then attempt to discredit every fact/stat that has been presented
  6. You have yet to present a single piece of evidence that supports your position

Got it. Ok

34 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Everything that I have said is fact based and is not opinion. 

Now you're just flat out lying because literally in the paragraph before that sentence you stated MULTIPLE opinions.

34 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I do think speed training is snake oil for 95% of the people that play golf. For example, you are a 12 handicap. You shouldn't be working on your clubhead speed and you would improve at a much faster rate focusing on other things. 

Both of those sentences in bold are opinions. Not facts even though you stated that EVERYTHING you have said is fact.

Here are more things in bold that you have stated that are opinions not facts.

On 6/17/2023 at 2:36 AM, Randomgolf99 said:

I am not a believer in training aids and think they are cash grabs. The reason why I don't find 99% of them helpful is the problem i have with this one. These training aids aren't golf clubs and it doesn't transfer over to the golf swing when you are holding a golf club. I think that you could use this and increase your clubhead speed while using the aid but I think when you then grab a golf club, it's not going to carry over. 

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Also the post referring to Matt Fitzpatrick isn't evidence or facts if he is being paid to promote the product which I am very confident in my assumption that he is

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

If I understand you are somewhat new to golf? Players like you are who I am trying to help. I am sure that as a new golfer, you want nothing more than to improve right? Nothing will help you enjoy the game more than getting better. I don't know what your swing looks like but I don't have to to understand that the last thing in the world you should be focusing on is increasing your clubhead speed. This is something that only a highly skilled player should be working on if they want to get better. 

Do me a favor and the next time you are on the driving range or playing a round, make a swing and swing at 50% of your normal power. I promise you that you will hit better shots immediately. The ball will go farther and straighter because you will be making better contact.  

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

 I have spent more time analyzing golf swings than anyone on this planet. While most people had normal high school and college lives, I did not and I spent most of it obsessed with trying to be the best golf instructor that I could be, learning everything that I could learn.

So in just a few minutes I found at least 8 examples of statements you have made that are opinions, not facts even though you claimed that every single thing you have stated in this thread is a fact. So yes, you did flat out lie when you said that every single thing you have said in this thread is a fact.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I'm not sure why you don't think I am providing facts and data because I have done exactly that.

No, no you have not. Show me the exact quotes you made where you gave facts and data that support your opinion that speed training and specifically The Stack does not transfer over to a driver clubhead. 

I'll wait. 

You asked for facts from us to support our side, we gave them to you. I'm asking you for facts now to support your side.

Until you provide facts that support your side, I'm out. 

Edited by klineka
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Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
Ball: :titleist: ProV1x Left Dash

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On 6/16/2023 at 11:36 PM, Randomgolf99 said:

I am not a believer in training aids and think they are cash grabs. The reason why I don't find 99% of them helpful is the problem i have with this one. These training aids aren't golf clubs and it doesn't transfer over to the golf swing when you are holding a golf club. I think that you could use this and increase your clubhead speed while using the aid but I think when you then grab a golf club, it's not going to carry over. 

Sasho Mackenzie is one of the leading researchers in golf biomechanics in the  world. It’s much more than simple physics. If you’d like to argue with him and the product, join the golf biomechanics board on facebook. He’s there and he participates along with many of the brightest minds in the game. 

Also, depending on what one is trying to improve on, holding a golf club is not needed to improving motion and sequencing. If you think that’s wrong, tell that to the entire physical training world, and good luck.

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Philip Kohnken, PGA
Director of Instruction, Lake Padden GC, Bellingham, WA

Srixon/Cleveland Club Fitter; PGA Modern Coach; Certified in Dr Kwon’s Golf Biomechanics Levels 1 & 2; Certified in SAM Putting; Certified in TPI
 
Team :srixon:!

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1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

... I have used facts ...

...

Everything that I have said is fact based .... 

I don't think so.  You've expressed at lot of opinion stated as fact, but precious little in the way of actual, substantiated fact.

Come to think of it: Nothing, really.

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6 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

The last question you have is unanswerable because there is not enough information. I would have to see the swings and know how they are identical. There isn't a way to gain clubhead speed in the blanket way that you are asking. 

Okay. That’s such a specious move. You don’t need more information to say if two identical swings except for speed create different results. It’s like saying you need to know more information to answer if 1+1 =2. Or you need to know more than mass and acceleration to determine Force when the equation is simply F=ma.

 

Consider LDRICK. Two of the same swings except for swing speed. It’s fair to say that the higher swing speed will result in longer distance. 

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth2+

3W: :taylormade-small: Stealth2

4H: :taylormade-small: Stealth 2

Irons 4I-9I:  :titleist-small: T200

Wedges P, 48: :titleist-small: T200

Wedges 54, 58: :titleist-small: Vokey SM9

Putter:  :odyssey-small: O Works #1 Black

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