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The Stack System - A Conversation on Gaining Swing Speed


iacas

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14 hours ago, klineka said:

My handicap is irrelevant to whether or not I would know my clubhead speed. Anyone with a couple hundred bucks can get a launch monitor that tells them their clubhead speed regardless of if they are a +5, a 1, or a 31 handicap.

Indeed.  I was a 30+ HCP on my best days last time I played.  Last year I measured my swing speed with my trusty $200 PRGR launch monitor.  (It was abysmal, btw :~( Thus my interest in eventual swing speed training.)

14 hours ago, phillyk said:

Also, depending on what one is trying to improve on, holding a golf club is not needed to improving motion and sequencing.

Yep.  Other than setup, at the very beginning of my training, I didn't hold a club again until we got to take-away.  I still do reps without a club for warm-up and to further-ingrain certain moves/feels I want to be repeatable without having "swing thoughts."

I'm proof positive it works, too.  While I haven't played in a while, I have hit balls.  Even not having completed my training: I'm hitting them far better, far more consistently then I ever did in my best days in the past.

Admittedly, training ≠ practice ≠ playing, so I cannot say, with absolute certainty, how well this will carry over into play, but, I assume it will result in considerable improvement.  If nothing else: I will take to the course a swing I know can work, and confidence is at least half the battle.

Since I have what I believe to be reasonable evidence to suggest swing training without even holding a club works, I presume swing speed training that doesn't employ clubs will likewise work--even without having read about the science and read the testimonials I have.

14 hours ago, phillyk said:

If you think that’s wrong, tell that to the entire physical training world, and good luck.

Like the gentleman who started the golf academy from which I'm taking my online lessons: Degrees in biomechanics and teaching.

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17 hours ago, iacas said:

You basically called me a liar. Dishonest. A shill.

You don't know that, because the opposite is accurate: Matt Fitzpatrick has spent money to get the instruction/training/coaching.

One of those guys (@klineka) replied to you up-thread. I have a bunch of students who take speed training seriously. I've been helping people with it for years (SuperSpeed, Mach 3, etc.), and we measure their swing speeds. It's an obvious and critical part of the training.

This isn't a matter of opinion. Plenty of "regular" players measure their swing speeds. @boogielicious is another. @billchao is another.

You're acting like my entire position is based on Matt Fitzpatrick. You ignored the parts of my posts where I talked about average golfers, many of whom own their own Mevo+ or whatever, and know what their clubhead speeds are.

Heck, I own a GEARS system: it too tells you clubhead speed at any point in the swing. Some of my guys know their clubhead speed at P5 and P6, and when they reach their maximum hand speed (and what that number is), too.

Something something something about name-calling. I'm quickly learning that I'm not going to give your opinion very much weight, so… if you think I'm foolish, that may be a good thing.

Mmmmm, nope. Those who know me would tell you that I'm pretty much between a 4 and a 6 about 99.5% of the time on the emotional scale. It takes about 100x more than whatever you've done here to make me "pissed off." 😀

You know what they say about assumptions. Also, more name-calling. You're winning that count, if you're keeping score.

People would have been happy to engage in an actual, honest, fair, gentlemanly conversation, but you came in guns blazing with the name-calling, the insinuations, and the "my experiences are fact" type of approach…

If the only thing that changes is that a player swings faster, sure. But there's a lot more involved than a player just learning to swing faster. Again, a player who swings at 100, who can learn to swing at 115, but whose cruising speed is 108 (I used different numbers earlier) may actually increase their accuracy. Sasho has a video or some stats out there about that happening pretty regularly.

Also…

Summary of the chart above: better players hit it both farther AND more accurately.

Yeah, I'm pushing it SOOOO hard. My last post before you came in here recently was in early April, and said:

Beyond that… I don't know what "the sweet spot theory" is, as the first time I think those words have been used in this topic are by you right there.

See above for how much weight your opinion carries with me. Cool, dude.

.More name-calling and insinuations of lying/deception/dishonesty/etc.

And, cool, we all know your opinion now. Why keep going?

I'm pretty comfortable with my place and "credibility" with people who have been here for more than a hot minute.

What is your name?

I know a few people in Las Vegas. Maybe they've heard of you.

I have 14-handicap students who know their clubhead speeds with 7I, hybrid, and driver. Jeez. I can name ten guys in a minute who own a Mevo+ or comparable launch monitor and could give you reports with hundreds (or thousands) of shots dating back months, years.

You're wrong. And, what happened between above where you said you know he is and now, where you're just assuming he is?

Let's be clear: he isn't being paid to use or endorse the Stack. The opposite is true: he paid to get the help/training/coaching.

Let's be clear about that, too: you accused me of being dishonest. Of being a shill.

Oh boy. If only we had, I dunno, pictures of Scott. Or if Scott had a Member Swing thread with years of video.

Seriously? This is where you go? I mean… it's amusing. I'll give you that.

Plus, people can work on multiple things at the same time.

More name-calling. Fun!

🤣

Where?


I'll ask again since you'll probably skip over it above: what's your name? You've got mine (even though you misspelled it). So, what's yours?

Not one single thing that you said in that post was true. Well I should say at least what I read of your post which was only a sentence or two. I didn't read anything past the fourth lie which was the fourth response that you gave. I operate in reality and there's no point in trying to communicate with someone that lives in a fantasy world like you. You are just making up things so that I respond back calling you a liar and then you will ban me from the forum because I called you out on deceiving people here.  

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8 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I operate in reality ...

Not in my opinion.  You appear to operate in your reality.  While that doesn't make you a liar, it does suggest to me you're delusional.

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16 hours ago, klineka said:

I'm not trying you sell you on anything. You asked for facts to back up my position, I gave them. 

You have yet to give any actual facts to back up your claims that speed training doesn't transfer over to an actual driver so I'll ask for it now. Please provide multiple examples that back up your side since multiple examples have been backed up that support my opinion.

My handicap is irrelevant to whether or not I would know my clubhead speed. Anyone with a couple hundred bucks can get a launch monitor that tells them their clubhead speed regardless of if they are a +5, a 1, or a 31 handicap.

Let's recap what's happened so far

  1. You come on here and make a claim that training aids don't work and that speed training doesn't transfer over to a driver clubhead
  2. People including myself make claims (without facts or numbers) as to why we disagree with you
  3. You (rightfully so) ask for numbers to support our claims
  4. We provide you with facts and numbers that support our claims (keep in mind you have yet to provide any facts that support your side)
  5. You then attempt to discredit every fact/stat that has been presented
  6. You have yet to present a single piece of evidence that supports your position

Got it. Ok

Now you're just flat out lying because literally in the paragraph before that sentence you stated MULTIPLE opinions.

Both of those sentences in bold are opinions. Not facts even though you stated that EVERYTHING you have said is fact.

Here are more things in bold that you have stated that are opinions not facts.

So in just a few minutes I found at least 8 examples of statements you have made that are opinions, not facts even though you claimed that every single thing you have stated in this thread is a fact. So yes, you did flat out lie when you said that every single thing you have said in this thread is a fact.

No, no you have not. Show me the exact quotes you made where you gave facts and data that support your opinion that speed training and specifically The Stack does not transfer over to a driver clubhead. 

I'll wait. 

You asked for facts from us to support our side, we gave them to you. I'm asking you for facts now to support your side.

Until you provide facts that support your side, I'm out. 

I really don't understand why "everyone" here is so emotional. I mean for the love of god, the only thing I said was that I don't think most training aids work and you would think I raped all of your family members. 

I'm not going to go back and forth with people who have no interest in a discussion and are just going to try and sell their product and are going to make ridiculous statements like the order in which a human crawls, walks, and runs is not facts. You idiots are asking for numbers???????? Numbers of what??? Research that I've done on garbage training aids that don't help anyone??? Obviously I haven't wasted my time doing that. 

When you are only trying to argue and and sell your product, then I'm not going to respond when you clearly have no ability to understand facts from opinions. You also don't understand that I don't waste my time doing research on training aids that are cash grabs. BTW if you think a pro athlete being paid to endorse a product is evidence and if you think that a couple posts on a forum is evidence then you are crazy. You know what are facts? It won't help you to swing the club faster if you can't hit the sweet spot on your club with any regularity. So here, let me put that in a number for you, ok. If you hit the ball on the toe and it goes 20 yards offline. If you swing faster, the ball will then go even further offline. Did you get that one there buddy? Want me to dumb it down anymore than that? 

I can't even read your post because it's such bullshit. You just lie and lie and lie so I'm not going to sit here and spoon feed you because you don't understand simple concepts that a 2nd grader understands. 

I want my account deleted and my posts removed because of all the lies and trying to make my personal info public. If you don't then I will get a lawyer and have it removed and I will sue you for slander. It won't be hard to prove how you took everything I said and ignored it and just made up lie after lie pretending you don't understand the most simple basic concepts. 

Don't bother responding to this as I'm not going to continue to have these idiotic arguments. I have better things to do. I will be checking back to see if my account and posts have been removed like I have requested. If not then you will hear from my attorney. 

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46 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I want my account deleted and my posts removed ...

Free clue: Few on-line forums will either delete accounts or posts. The former so as to avoid somebody else firing-up an account with the same name (the problem there should be obvious) and the latter so as not to delete evidence, or to provide an illustrative example.  (In the instant case I imagine both would apply.)

Besides: Forum administration would not only have to remove your comments, but, also those portions of your comments there were quoted.  The end result would be a thread that would contain multiple nonsensical posts because all context would be lost.

Just how much time do you suppose forum administration will be willing to spend on somebody who's roundly criticized and insulted it?

46 minutes ago, Randomgolf99 said:

If you don't then I will get a lawyer and have it removed and I will sue you for slander. It won't be hard to prove ...

Good luck with that.

Proving defamation is harder than you think.  See, for example: Defamation Law Made Simple.  But, sure, go spend money on a lawyer if that'll make you happy.

Btw: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but, it seems to me if anybody here has a case for a defamation lawsuit, it would be some of the members whose motivations you've several times clearly impugned?

 

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1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I'm not going to go back and forth with people who have no interest in a discussion and are just going to try and sell their product and are going to make ridiculous statements like the order in which a human crawls, walks, and runs is not facts. You idiots are asking for numbers???????? Numbers of what???

I am absolutely interested in a discussion. I claimed that The Stack system can provide measurable speed gains that do transfer over to a driver. You claim that it does not.

I provided numbers backing up my side of the claim, so in an effort to engage in a back and forth discussion I am asking for you to provide facts and evidence that The Stack system or another speed training system does not transfer over to the driver clubhead. 

That seems like a pretty clear ask of numbers IMO.

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

When you are only trying to argue and and sell your product, then I'm not going to respond when you clearly have no ability to understand facts from opinions.

It's not my product, I have no affiliation with The Stack or any of the owners, creators, etc. I paid for it 100% out of my own pocket. I'm not trying to sell anything. I don't care if you buy it or not. All I've done in this entire thread over the last 6 months is describe (with numbers and facts) my experience using The Stack.

Surely you jest about no ability to understand facts from opinions, right? In my previous post to you I pointed out at least 8 examples where you made opinions but claimed they were facts.

 

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

You know what are facts? It won't help you to swing the club faster if you can't hit the sweet spot on your club with any regularity. 

But I can hit the sweet spot on my club with some regularity, so then by your own logic, that means The Stack helped me, right?

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I want my account deleted and my posts removed because of all the lies and trying to make my personal info public. If you don't then I will get a lawyer and have it removed and I will sue you for slander. It won't be hard to prove how you took everything I said and ignored it and just made up lie after lie pretending you don't understand the most simple basic concepts. 

Don't bother responding to this as I'm not going to continue to have these idiotic arguments. I have better things to do. I will be checking back to see if my account and posts have been removed like I have requested.

Why are you telling this to me? 

I would love for you to quote every lie I have made in this topic. 

1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I will be checking back to see if my account and posts have been removed like I have requested. If not then you will hear from my attorney. 

Facebook Things GIF

 

Yeah well if you don't provide facts and evidence that The Stack system or another speed training system does not transfer over to the driver clubhead then you'll be hearing from my attorney!!! Take that!!!

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
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1 hour ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I want my account deleted and my posts removed

I agree. And if you ever really go back and read the unbelievable comments you made…you’ll be glad you requested that.

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6 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I agree. And if you ever really go back and read the unbelievable comments you made…you’ll be glad you requested that.

Okay. Since Randomgolf99 is threatening legal action just my opinion but I would preserve everything he has posted and all responses in case it is needed as “evidence”.  
 

Not offering legal advice. Just some common sense 

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth2+

3W: :taylormade-small: Stealth2

4H: :taylormade-small: Stealth 2

Irons 4I-9I:  :titleist-small: T200

Wedges P, 48: :titleist-small: T200

Wedges 54, 58: :titleist-small: Vokey SM9

Putter:  :odyssey-small: O Works #1 Black

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We can all move on now.

We don't often delete accounts, but since this particular individual had contributed so little value, deleting his account made sense.

This topic can go back to its general vibe of long stretches of no activity, with the occasional update by someone who uses The Stack.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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21 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I was referring to the person that is a regular player that probably is lucky to have time to play once a week. It's just not a common thing for the average player to know these things. That's something that only serious players are concerned with or if they recently had been fit for equipment.

I play about once per week. I know my swing speed. I'm in a Wednesday Night League and most everyone I talk to in my league knows their swing speed. I talk to a lot of people. (It's true ask anyone on this forum who've met me. They will vouch for the fact that I talk a lot.... A LOT!) 

10 maybe 20 years ago, I think people didn't know their swing speed. Back then we'd all ask each other "How far do you hit driver?" Or "How far do you hit your 7-iron." Now-a-days, most people who've I've talked to to who are at all serious about golf know their swing speed. 

20 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Also the post referring to Matt Fitzpatrick isn't evidence or facts if he is being paid to promote the product which I am very confident in my assumption that he is. 

Actually you can google the Golf Digest Article about Matt Fitzpatrick, he didn't get paid to use the Stack System. 

19 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I did accuse an admin of having multiple accounts and I stand by that.  

I can promise you he doesn't. I think I've met everyone who's chimed in on this thread and I'm positive they are all different people. If you'd like to prove it to yourself you can go to all of our MySwing Threads. There is video of us all there. We are clearly all different people. I think I'd like to look like @billchao, cuz then I could probably pull off the white belt thing... But I don't think its in the cards. 🤪

19 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I do think speed training is snake oil for 95% of the people that play golf. For example, you are a 12 handicap. You shouldn't be working on your clubhead speed and you would improve at a much faster rate focusing on other things. 

I'm a 14, and I do work on other things. But I also have and I do work on my club head speed. I don't think anyone's saying this should be "The Only" thing you work on. 

19 hours ago, iacas said:

I have 14-handicap students who know their clubhead speeds with 7I, hybrid, and driver. Jeez. I can name ten guys in a minute who own a Mevo+ or comparable launch monitor and could give you reports with hundreds (or thousands) of shots dating back months, years.

I can vouch for this statement. I'm a 14-handicap student who knows his club head speed with 7-iron, hybrid and driver. 

2 hours ago, Guest said:

Don't bother responding to this as I'm not going to continue to have these idiotic arguments. I have better things to do. I will be checking back to see if my account and posts have been removed like I have requested. If not then you will hear from my attorney. 

Relax, man. 

This is a forum with a group of folks who love or at least like golf. Most of the people on the forum work on their games pretty hard. Many of us work on our swing speed as well. A few of us use the The Stack System. (Personally, I don't ... but I'd consider using it. I got results with the Super Speed System. That I still have and use every off season.) 

I suggest coming back at this with an open mind. 

You initially suggested that all training aids were ineffective (I'm paraphrasing here.), but later admitted to using some to help your students. You pivoted to your argument to say all speed training was snake oil. (Again, I paraphrase.) Later, you dropped that argument and moved on to say that speed training should be reserved for the very elite. (Once again, I'm paraphrasing.) 

You asked to have a discussion over an idea which you said yourself you have a different opinion than the rest of us. (More paraphrasing.) When folks engaged in that discussion, you moved the goal posts and said you never presented any opinions. Only facts, ... Yet, you let by saying you had a different opinion and wanted a discussion. Which was provided for you. 

I'm going to suggest, you relax a bit. Reread what was typed and what questions the thread is trying to answer. Come back at it with an open mind. I think you'll find there is a lot of data that supports speed training at any level can and does help golfers (other athletes too) improve. 👍😁👍

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

We can all move on now.

We don't often delete accounts, but since this particular individual had contributed so little value, deleting his account made sense.

This topic can go back to its general vibe of long stretches of no activity, with the occasional update by someone who uses The Stack.

Ah, crap!

I just extended an olive branch. 🤷‍♂️

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My bag is an ever-changing combination of clubs. 

A mix I am forever tinkering with. 

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Back to some on topic matters, I hit a new clubhead speed PR today of 130.3mph and averaged 125.3 over 14 swings while hitting balls at the range. :dance:

Craziest part is I wasn't even really trying to go all out 110% effort swings or anything and still managed a 130.3, a 129.3, and a 128.1 with most of the others being in the low/mid 120s.

They felt like controllable/repeatable swings and shot shape was consistent and dispersion was tighter than usual. 

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Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
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1 minute ago, klineka said:

Back to some on topic matters, I hit a new clubhead speed PR today of 130.3mph and averaged 125.3 over 14 swings while hitting balls at the range. :dance:

Congratulations!

1 minute ago, klineka said:

Craziest part is I wasn't even really trying to go all out 110% effort swings or anything and still managed a 130.3, a 129.3, and a 128.1 with most of the others being in the low/mid 120s.

They felt like controllable/repeatable swings and shot shape was consistent and dispersion was tighter than usual. 

It is my understanding that is the point of swing speed, or over-speed, training.  You train at or for maximum effort, max speed, then dial it back to what feels like something less than that (80% is often mentioned) in practice and play.  The result is supposed to be the same or greater distance than you used to have trying to swing out of your boots, but, with a lot more consistency and tighter dispersion.

Looks like it's working for you :beer:

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13 minutes ago, klineka said:

Back to some on topic matters, I hit a new clubhead speed PR today of 130.3mph and averaged 125.3 over 14 swings while hitting balls at the range. :dance:

Craziest part is I wasn't even really trying to go all out 110% effort swings or anything and still managed a 130.3, a 129.3, and a 128.1 with most of the others being in the low/mid 120s.

They felt like controllable/repeatable swings and shot shape was consistent and dispersion was tighter than usual. 

That’s awesome! Do you have a sense of how much distance you’ve added to your drive?

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth2+

3W: :taylormade-small: Stealth2

4H: :taylormade-small: Stealth 2

Irons 4I-9I:  :titleist-small: T200

Wedges P, 48: :titleist-small: T200

Wedges 54, 58: :titleist-small: Vokey SM9

Putter:  :odyssey-small: O Works #1 Black

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17 minutes ago, klineka said:

They felt like controllable/repeatable swings and shot shape was consistent and dispersion was tighter than usual. 

Can't be true. Just physics. 😉

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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15 minutes ago, ChiTown said:

That’s awesome! Do you have a sense of how much distance you’ve added to your drive?

It's likely around 10-15yds or so on average, but I think where I am noticing it the most is that there's more top end distance on the perfect strikes.

Like instead of me averaging 280yds and topping out right at 300, maybe 305 or so in 2022, I'm now averaging more in the 290 range and it's not uncommon for me to be out there at 315+ depending on the conditions. I'm hitting 300+ far more often than I ever have before.

I'm also hitting some balls now that are less than perfect strikes, have some fade (borderline slice) and end up in the right rough but are still 285 whereas last year I feel like that might have been 265 or so. I can't remember mishitting and fading/slicing a ball 285 in the rough last year.

All of this too is with me not delivering the club optimally either. I know I swing down and across it so I believe there's room for even more distance at this swing speed especially based on what kinds of carry numbers I see from PGA tour players with similar clubhead speeds.

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

Can't be true. Just physics. 😉

But but but I have numbers!!! I only had 1 ball go more than 25yds right of my target which is a huge win for me right now trying to eradicate a push slice.

Edited by klineka
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Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
Ball: :titleist: ProV1x Left Dash

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@klineka that’s awesome! I’ll definitely look into getting the system. 

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth2+

3W: :taylormade-small: Stealth2

4H: :taylormade-small: Stealth 2

Irons 4I-9I:  :titleist-small: T200

Wedges P, 48: :titleist-small: T200

Wedges 54, 58: :titleist-small: Vokey SM9

Putter:  :odyssey-small: O Works #1 Black

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13 minutes ago, ChiTown said:

@klineka that’s awesome! I’ll definitely look into getting the system. 

Use the link and coupon code in the sidebar so I can continue to earn a few pennies from the sale of snake oil! (And so you can save a chunk of change yourself.)

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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  • Posts

    • Mmmm. I didn’t it was very pleasant if a bit cool.   
    • Day 194 - Played Caledonia this morning, a really nice course. I played well, although putting cost me a handful of strokes. 
    • Completed my second full swing spectrum, and pretty pleased with the results: I decided to do a 12 session cruiser schedule next. Cruiser is one of the creative programs. The AI recommendation was to do full speed spectrum again, but I wanted to try out a creative program. Cruiser is meant for in-season or busier times, according to the description. I wanted to just maintain for about 4-6 weeks, so I think it's a good fit. I enjoyed the first work out tonight. I am curious to see how it goes and what my next progress check looks like. 
    • I should clarify regarding my scramble comments it's absolutely not the case when scrambling in an outing or event, my comment was moreso when it's just my usual foursome and we decide to scramble instead of playing our own balls for whatever reason. (Typically if we're on a trip or something and we play 36 in a day we usually scramble one of the 18s) We are normally pretty quick to begin with though, if we don't get stuck behind anyone we regularly play in 3:30 when playing our own balls even with 1-2 guys shooting 90-100+
    • Day 4: did a stack session. 
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