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Free Lift From Swale


Mkgrady

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I think you two, @DaveP043 and @Ruler, may be talking about two different images.

The below, IMO, should not be GUR or a penalty area. Just play it.

On 10/17/2021 at 3:20 PM, Darkfrog said:

This is what the channels look like on my course (not a great angle but it shows the concept):

C4F4A89C-D1B2-4D67-852B-F779F3037EE7.thumb.jpeg.53b0a3570b500f54b8e54517750c40fb.jpeg

 

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43 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think you two, @DaveP043 and @Ruler, may be talking about two different images.

The below, IMO, should not be GUR or a penalty area. Just play it.

 

Well, that depends on the purpose of that 'channel'. I agree to the 'just play it' but the dispute will begin once there is still water in that 'channel'. Is that Temporary water or is it Penalty Area water..?

In the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the course to determine what those undulations are and inform players accordingly.

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On 10/17/2021 at 3:20 PM, Darkfrog said:

This is what the channels look like on my course (not a great angle but it shows the concept):

C4F4A89C-D1B2-4D67-852B-F779F3037EE7.thumb.jpeg.53b0a3570b500f54b8e54517750c40fb.jpeg

On a local course, there is a similar channel that runs the width of the fairway, but is about half as wide and usually has some standing water in it. We always take a free drop away from the direction of the green, w/o penalty, and play on. The channel is meant as drainage, so we don't consider it a natural part of the course. Although, for any official games, the local rules dictate.

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40 minutes ago, WilliamB said:

On a local course, there is a similar channel that runs the width of the fairway, but is about half as wide and usually has some standing water in it. We always take a free drop away from the direction of the green, w/o penalty, and play on. The channel is meant as drainage, so we don't consider it a natural part of the course. Although, for any official games, the local rules dictate.

I beg your pardon?

You take a free drop based on which Rule?

Edited by Ruler
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35 minutes ago, Ruler said:

I beg your pardon?

You take a free drop based on which Rule?

Basically, our own rules. Although, talking to the pro shop, they suggest the same. Different strokes for different folks. Golf is a 'game', and how each play it is their right. Some who make it a profession, are very exacting on how they deal with the rules.

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8 minutes ago, WilliamB said:

Golf is a 'game', and how each play it is their right. Some who make it a profession, are very exacting on how they deal with the rules.

I have no problem with people playing the way they choose, but we ARE in a part of TST specifically for Rules of Golf.  @Ruler and I may disagree on whether a specific depressed area fits the Definition of Penalty Area, or on what may be or should be defined as GUR by the Committee, but we're each trying to have those discussions within the Rules as written.  These kinds of discussions can be really useful in learning about the rules, they certainly have helped me to improve my understanding.  

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46 minutes ago, WilliamB said:

Basically, our own rules. Although, talking to the pro shop, they suggest the same. Different strokes for different folks. Golf is a 'game', and how each play it is their right. Some who make it a profession, are very exacting on how they deal with the rules.

At this point Erik would say 'this is a Rules forum' and I would concur with him. Making one's own rules is not what golf is about.

There is nothing wrong to play golf not abiding to the Rules of Golf but it is IMHO important to know when one is doing that. However, there is no contribution presenting here rules that do not exists.

Edited by Ruler
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36 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I have no problem with people playing the way they choose, but we ARE in a part of TST specifically for Rules of Golf.  @Ruler and I may disagree on whether a specific depressed area fits the Definition of Penalty Area, or on what may be or should be defined as GUR by the Committee, but we're each trying to have those discussions within the Rules as written.  These kinds of discussions can be really useful in learning about the rules, they certainly have helped me to improve my understanding.  

Fair enough, and I see your point regarding this being a 'rules thread', and should post accordingly.

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20 minutes ago, WilliamB said:

Fair enough, and I see your point regarding this being a 'rules thread', and should post accordingly.

Yes, another thing I might say is that if you're making up your own rules, you're not playing golf. You're playing a game that resembles golf.

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On 10/21/2021 at 3:50 PM, iacas said:

I think you two, @DaveP043 and @Ruler, may be talking about two different images.

The below, IMO, should not be GUR or a penalty area. Just play it.

 

If that is fairway and not light rough the damaged areas should be marked and deemed GUR. But not otherwise.

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8 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

If that is fairway and not light rough the damaged areas should be marked and deemed GUR. But not otherwise.

Nah. The damaged area appears to be from divots. And most of those aren’t in the depression. Play it.

Your white paint budget must be much higher than mine.

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22 hours ago, iacas said:

Nah. The damaged area appears to be from divots. And most of those aren’t in the depression. Play it.

Your white paint budget must be much higher than mine.

You may be right but the patch towards the top and the one bottom right look to be bigger than a normal divot hole. Also the divots are a) behind the holes and b) look to be much smaller that the holes.

I would like to see some sort of scale, the grass seems to be very long for a fairway cut.

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On 10/21/2021 at 5:50 PM, iacas said:

I think you two, @DaveP043 and @Ruler, may be talking about two different images.

The below, IMO, should not be GUR or a penalty area. Just play it.

 

From the picture and the posts from the OP I have come to the conclusion that this undulation is built for the purpose of both collecting and directing water (away from the fairway). If that is the case it falls under the Definition of a Penalty Area as it is equivalent to a ditch - an open water course (whether or not containing water). But if it is just an undulation created with no other specific purpose than to satisfy the course designer then it is not a PA and any water in it would be Temporary Water. 

52 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

I would like to see some sort of scale, the grass seems to be very long for a fairway cut.

IMO that is due to the shape of the undulation, the mower blades cannot reach the bottom.

But I agree with you, the worn out area could be marked as GUR as long as it is outside the margins of the undulation (no GUR in a PA). It does not matter whether the wear origins from hitting balls, as long as it is a substantially large area and not fit for play.

Edited by Ruler
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On 10/17/2021 at 12:20 PM, Darkfrog said:

This is what the channels look like on my course (not a great angle but it shows the concept):

C4F4A89C-D1B2-4D67-852B-F779F3037EE7.thumb.jpeg.53b0a3570b500f54b8e54517750c40fb.jpeg

I would just play anything as it lies in this or similar cases.

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1 hour ago, Ruler said:

From the picture and the posts from the OP I have come to the conclusion that this undulation is built for the purpose of both collecting and directing water (away from the fairway).

Nah, I see it as more of a depression around an underground drain line. I say that because the course I played throughout high school had one of these on the sixth fairway, and the super was working on it this year when we rated the course.

It was always just the general area/through the green. Sometimes it was a little longer, but it was even a little wider than this one seems to be.

The water goes under the ground, through a drain line. I believe this one is actually that, too.

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20 minutes ago, iacas said:

The water goes under the ground, through a drain line. I believe this one is actually that, too.

It too think that's the case: it's a French drain.  (Diagram from Wikipedia).

French_drain_diagram.jpg

There are rocks on top of the pipe, and if they are exposed it should be treated as an immovable obstruction (same as cart path), but if the sod on top is consistent with the rest of the area, even though it is in a depression, it should be treated as the general area, unless explicitly mentioned as GUR and/or in a local rule. This is what @Rulesman also stated, above, per the R&A.

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29 minutes ago, iacas said:

Nah, I see it as more of a depression around an underground drain line. I say that because the course I played throughout high school had one of these on the sixth fairway, and the super was working on it this year when we rated the course.

It was always just the general area/through the green. Sometimes it was a little longer, but it was even a little wider than this one seems to be.

The water goes under the ground, through a drain line. I believe this one is actually that, too.

If it is a French drain then it might be treated as an Immovable Obstruction (or GUR), depending whether there is enough soil on top of the construction or not.

Personally I would like to see such channels on top of a French drain to be treated as IO's. After all, it is a construction and makes playing more difficult than on either side of that channel.

Edited by Ruler
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2 minutes ago, Ruler said:

If it is a French drain then it might be treated as an Immovable Obstruction (or GUR), depending whether there is enough soil on top of the construction or not.

Do you see any rocks? 🙂 I don't.

Play it as it lies.

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