Relax the Hands

[Wade Patton]

Snead and Watson too. Watson was specifically talking about chip shots, which of course require the least. 

iacas, thank you for trying to help. I do appreciate that, but I really have no cares as to your game vs. mine.  I'm only improving mine, and your game has no bearing on that. 

Here's a little background info you did not have knowledge of in my case: My first clubs had hard slick leather grips. Then I moved on to hard and still undersized rubber grips. Eventually I had a few regripped to cord and half-cord,  but never owned a full set of fresh grips. 

I developed tremendous callouses gripping those clubs, never knew they were too small. It's very likely that I have always been overgripping because that's what I developed my game with, it took a lot of pressure to hold onto those clubs of my youth.  

Now is the first time in my life I've had properly-sized and fully fresh grips on a set of clubs. It simply does not take as much pressure to hang onto them as I am  used to.

You seemed to have missed this point: My game has improved significantly since considering lesser grip pressures.

When my game improves, I try to stick with those things that improved it. That is what I'm doing here. 

If a time comes when I see benefits from squeezing the tarnation out my grips, then I'll go back to stranglehold tactics. Perhaps that is next month, perhaps it is never. I'm good with what I got right now though. 

Perhaps next time we'll agree perfectly on a golf subject, I have no problem with that, but here I'm done. And I'm not getting my old golf callouses back. 

 

 

 

 

[Vinsk]

34 minutes ago, Wade Patton said:

iacas, thank you for trying to help. I do appreciate that, but I really have no cares as to your game vs. mine.  I'm only improving mine, and your game has no bearing on that

Is that what you usually tell instructors? Good luck, really. But this is kinda ridiculous. Cheers.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

iacas, thank you for trying to help. I do appreciate that, but I really have no cares as to your game vs. mine.  I'm only improving mine, and your game has no bearing on that. 

I’m not talking about my game.

5 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

I developed tremendous callouses gripping those clubs

Calluses aren’t from gripping the club too firmly. They’re from the grip moving in your hand.

5 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

Snead

Snead held the grip really firmly.

And again I’m talking about full swings.

[chspeed]

Is it possible that OP is confusing gripping the hands tightly and keeping the wrists softer? I find that when I grip a bit too tightly, I really limit my wrist movement. For me, the feeling of locking me wrists with a tight grip can limit my distance (although seems to improve accuracy).

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, chspeed said:

Is it possible that OP is confusing gripping the hands tightly and keeping the wrists softer? I find that when I grip a bit too tightly, I really limit my wrist movement. For me, the feeling of locking me wrists with a tight grip can limit my distance (although seems to improve accuracy).

I don’t think so. I believe what we have here is one of those guys who plays vintage clubs, ‘ technology be damned!’ types who still take the words of vintage golfers and prefers to hold on to nostalgic eureka moments who isn’t here for any advice. He’s here to tell us what he believes and isn’t interested in anything that counters those beliefs. 🫣

[cedrictheo]

23 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

I laugh because I just saw Greg Norman give credit to Jack Nicklaus for giving him the best golf tip of his life one evening of the 1986 British Open (if I recall correctly about the date). He said that Jack mentioned that he should watch his grip pressure and that he made a conscious effort to do in route to winning that one.

If someone has worked on their swing for decades… grip pressure seems a reasonable locus of attention during a round. 

lf you can’t break par regularly I would bet all my marbles that there are other mechanical changes you could work on that will improve your swing (and your scores) A LOT more than changes in grip pressure. 

[iacas]

I know you're done with the topic, @WadePatton, but I hope you'll at least consider what I'm about to say with an open mind. I've thought about this a bit more, and I want to re-iterate some things and also state some things perhaps for the first time (in this topic).

Full Swings
Remember I'm just talking about full swings, not chip shots, etc.

Feel Ain't Real
Let's both understand that "feel ain't real" of course, and if the club isn't flying out of your hands, you ARE gripping the club firmly at some point in your swing, because you have to. So what you think you're doing, you may not even be doing. Maybe you're gripping the club more lightly at setup,  but who knows when you clamp down - before even transition is my guess. It almost has to be.

Movement Causes Friction
You talked about calluses and things before, but gripping the club firmly doesn't cause calluses, movement does. So while you were gripping the club firmly at setup before, you may have loosened it at some point, or otherwise allowed or caused the grip to move in your hands. Just impacting the ground can cause vibrations that cause movement, too, but honestly the bigger calluses I see often come from people with what they think are looser grips because they re-grip in transition and that movement rubs/wears.

What People Say they Do
What someone says they do is of very little concern to me. Feel ain't real, and great golfers have incredibly strong hands. So what feels like a 4/10 to them is still gripping the club really, really firmly. I've measured my grip strength with a dynamometer, and can grip it quite a bit more firmly than someone with my size, etc. should be able to… because I've been strengthening my hands every time I swing a club. So I could feel like I can grip it quite a bit more. My "4/10" might be someone else's 9/10.

It's also possible you were squeezing it at a 10/10 with forearm tension, and now you're a 7/10 with no forearm tension, while I'm picturing you gripping at a 3/10 or something.

Not Above the Wrists
The trick is often to grip the club firmly, but not let the tension go above the wrists (into the forearms or even shoulders like I've seen from some people).

Focusing on Other Things
It's often the case that telling a student to focus on something — even something nearly inconsequential — removes the burden of them trying to do some other things, resulting in a clearer mind. You may be experiencing some of that. By focusing on your grip pressure, you're not able to think about the other things you were thinking about before.

Consistency Throughout the Swing
Gripping firmer at setup and maintaining that same grip pressure throughout the swing is, to me, a better prospect than gripping it loosely and then clamping down at different parts of the swing. Clamping down can change the orientation of the clubface to the hands, can cause the blisters/hot spots from movement, and send the sweet spot moving around relative to the plane or path.

Other Things to Worry About
Someone else said it, but it's highly unlikely grip pressure is something you should have in the top three things to worry about. Now, it's a non-dynamic thing — you can grip it firmer and THEN worry about a dynamic part of the swing — but it's unlikely worth much focus other than doing it. Rory could grip a club with three fingers and beat both of us, probably, so even if you do grip it too loosely, it's not like this is going to destroy (or be a super aid) to your game. It's just not a needle mover. It's a fine detail.

[iacas]

Dennis Sales Golf (@dennissalesgolf) • Instagram photo

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[iacas]

I've posted this elsewhere, but it's good here, too.

[Wade Patton]

Because I waded into this with the best of intentions but got "run off" by the ideas of others who did not like what I had to share, I'll exit this thread forever with the following observations. I wasn't looking for instruction when I made those comments, but only sharing a personal revelation which helped me feel the clubhead in my swing-resulting in better observed performance. I understand that others were just trying to help.

Later I went out and swung with the lightest possible pressures and it was enlightening. I found the dynamicism of our human bodies and brain take over and the pressure varies perfectly according to what is necessary. Then not long after that I found Manuel de la Torre (who was unknown to me just three weeks ago) to state nearly exactly what I had experienced. He knew more about how to hit a ball than most, his comments start at 30:34 in the "Grip Concept" part of the clinic on YT (if anyone cares to see it). He was brilliant, a great teacher, and I have nothing else to say about body parts in the swinging of a golf club. I am converted to the style/instruction of Jones/Torre at this point and love it.  It's a new game nearly.  Good morning, time for coffee and a little more practice. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Wade Patton
words and stuff got moved around for clarification and emphasis.

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, Wade Patton said:

Because I waded into this with the best of intentions but got "run off" by the ideas of others who did not like what I had to share, I'll exit this thread forever with the following observations. I wasn't looking for instruction when I made those comments, but only sharing a personal revelation which helped me feel the clubhead in my swing-resulting in better observed performance. I understand that others were just trying to help.

Later I went out and swung with the lightest possible pressures and it was enlightening. I found the dynamicism of our human bodies and brain take over and the pressure varies perfectly according to what is necessary. Then not long after that I found Manuel de la Torre (who was unknown to me just three weeks ago) to state nearly exactly what I had experienced. He knew more about how to hit a ball than most, his comments start at 30:34 in the "Grip Concept" part of the clinic on YT (if anyone cares to see it). He was brilliant, a great teacher, and I have nothing else to say about body parts in the swinging of a golf club. I am converted to the style/instruction of Jones/Torre at this point and love it.  It's a new game nearly.  Good morning, time for coffee and a little more practice.

Hey Wade,

You sound upset. But there's no reason to be. If a certain swing thought is working for you, then Great. 
I don't think anyone has said that you shouldn't use it. Do what works for you. Sometimes we all have certain "feels" that we use that help us improve. Many of these "feels" work well for what ever we are working through, but would be absolutely detrimental to another golfer. 

The only suggestion I would make is discuss what ever swing change or set up change you are making with a qualified pro who knows your swing. Sometimes you are making a change which seems to help only later to find out that you are making a compensation for a compensation which may be a compensation for another compensation. 

When ever I discuss things I'm working on with this forum I tried to keep it general. "I'm working on something with my lead hip", or "With my set up", or sometimes I'll even just say I'm working on my "priority piece(s)". I do this not because I'm worried that somebody is going to disagree with what I'm working on. (I don't care if folks disagree with what I'm working on, I'm working MY problems not theirs.) I do this because I really don't want somebody thinking that what I'm working on will help them. Other than some of the very basics, their are very few principles that will help me and also help everyone else. Sometimes I'm even working on stuff that's fundamentally wrong, but its an exaggeration to correct something that's fundamentally wrong in the other direction. 

Personally I've rarely if ever thought about how hard to grip the club. So, you at least made me think about it. 

I also never heard of Mauel de la Torre. And now I have. 

So, do what works for you. Keep coming back, even if we don't agree. Unless your playing opponents are on this forum, everyone here wants you to improve. 

Now, I need some of that coffee. 

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

Because I waded into this with the best of intentions but got "run off" by the ideas of others who did not like what I had to share,

That’s really quite disingenuous of you to say. We’ve seen this dozens of times. Someone comes here to post their ‘revelations’ and become disgruntled if any facts are presented that in any way contradict what they feel they’ve discovered. It’s a poor attitude and closes any learning. You feel justified in your revelation because you found an instructor who agrees with you. You immediately take to him without question simply for that. 
 

We all here appreciate good intentions and people feeling inspired about their swings/knowledge. But we also adhere to data and science. Erik is phenomenal golf instructor who backs his teachings/ideology on science and research. Not sure why you seem to be so resistant to that. Cheers.

[Double Mocha Man]

3 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Hey Wade,

You sound upset. But there's no reason to be. If a certain swing thought is working for you, then Great. 
I don't think anyone has said that you shouldn't use it. Do what works for you. Sometimes we all have certain "feels" that we use that help us improve. Many of these "feels" work well for what ever we are working through, but would be absolutely detrimental to another golfer. 

The only suggestion I would make is discuss what ever swing change or set up change you are making with a qualified pro who knows your swing. Sometimes you are making a change which seems to help only later to find out that you are making a compensation for a compensation which may be a compensation for another compensation. 

When ever I discuss things I'm working on with this forum I tried to keep it general. "I'm working on something with my lead hip", or "With my set up", or sometimes I'll even just say I'm working on my "priority piece(s)". I do this not because I'm worried that somebody is going to disagree with what I'm working on. (I don't care if folks disagree with what I'm working on, I'm working MY problems not theirs.) I do this because I really don't want somebody thinking that what I'm working on will help them. Other than some of the very basics, their are very few principles that will help me and also help everyone else. Sometimes I'm even working on stuff that's fundamentally wrong, but its an exaggeration to correct something that's fundamentally wrong in the other direction. 

Personally I've rarely if ever thought about how hard to grip the club. So, you at least made me think about it. 

I also never heard of Mauel de la Torre. And now I have. 

So, do what works for you. Keep coming back, even if we don't agree. Unless your playing opponents are on this forum, everyone here wants you to improve. 

Now, I need some of that coffee. 

Coffee delivered.  Chet, you are so good at diplomacy.  Impressed.  You didn't learn that at CPS.

[saevel25]

4 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

Because I waded into this with the best of intentions but got "run off" by the ideas of others who did not like what I had to share, I'll exit this thread forever with the following observations. I wasn't looking for instruction when I made those comments, but only sharing a personal revelation which helped me feel the clubhead in my swing-resulting in better observed performance. I understand that others were just trying to help.

Ok a few things...

1. No one is running you off. Just because you express your opinion does not mean it will not be contested and questioned. Doesn't mean everyone will be, "Oh I should try this." Honestly, you shouldn't care if people disagree with you are contest your opinion. I mean, if it works for you, why get all up an arms about it. 

2. People, some who know more about golf theory than any of us, or others posting videos from those who know golf theory is showing that for the VAST MAJORITY OF GOLFERS, they need to hold onto the club firmer not softer. Now, it could work for you. Only time will tell. As of right now, unless you kept track of your golf rounds based on ball striking, like GIR, proximity to hole, or strokes gained it will be hard to tell how much benefit you are getting. Honestly, bad golfers can have great driving range sessions all the time and never carry it to the course because the two are completely different things. 

So, in the end, it works for you.... for now. Good, I hope it sticks. For the sake of the vast majority of golfers, the old adage of holding the club loosely is just not good advice as described above by people who know more about the golf swing than we do. 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

who know more about the golf swing than we do. 

I think this is where some just become stubborn. It’s like people who still think antibiotics cure viral illnesses. They don’t care what any science proves. GEARS is for those who have lost touch with their humanness and don’t realize how the body is a wonderful machine that can perform the golf swing automagically.🙄

[saevel25]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I think this is where some just become stubborn. It’s like people who still think antibiotics cure viral illnesses. They don’t care what any science proves. GEARS is for those who have lost touch with their humanness and don’t realize how the body is a wonderful machine that can perform the golf swing automagically.🙄

I can understand the stubbornness. Humans are way more likely to not change their minds once they have accepted an idea they have ownership of. This is why a powerful tool to get someone to agree with you by having them to come up the conclusion you want own their own.  

Yea, once someone makes up their mind they are less likely to give it up. 

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

Because I waded into this with the best of intentions but got "run off" by the ideas of others who did not like what I had to share

Let's be frank (and clear):

• You weren't "run off" in the least. That's disingenuous.
• It's not about "liking" what you had to share, it's about sharing information I believe to be better and more accurate.

9 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

I wasn't looking for instruction when I made those comments, but only sharing a personal revelation which helped me feel the clubhead in my swing-resulting in better observed performance.

As noted above, there could be other reasons for your performance.

9 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

I understand that others were just trying to help.

As always, yes. Which is why the disingenuous comments kinda stink.

9 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

Later I went out and swung with the lightest possible pressures and it was enlightening. I found the dynamicism of our human bodies and brain take over and the pressure varies perfectly according to what is necessary.

Of course they vary by what's necessary — if it didn't the club would fly out of your hands. The point remains:

• You don't really want the "variability" throughout your swing. Varying your grip firmness can change the clubface angle, etc. It can lead to over-hinging, and a lack of control over the sweet spot. It can cause blisters because a "variable" grip is more likely to be a "moving" grip.
• As others have pointed out, you're less likely to swing as fast with a "light" grip because you're not sending a signal to your body that you can swing fast. A light grip often leads to slower swings because your body limits the swing speed to what it thinks it can control.

9 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

He knew more about how to hit a ball than most, his comments start at 30:34 in the "Grip Concept" part of the clinic on YT (if anyone cares to see it).

You can embed YouTube videos. It's here:

A few notes:

• The video is from 1987. We've learned a lot since then.
• He says "hold the club with sufficient pressure to control the length of the club that you're using and the speed with which you're using it." See above for my comments re: the second half of that sentence (and above too for the first part - looser grips tend to get too long and lack control of the sweet spot).

9 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

He was brilliant, a great teacher, and I have nothing else to say about body parts in the swinging of a golf club. I am converted to the style/instruction of Jones/Torre at this point and love it.  It's a new game nearly.  Good morning, time for coffee and a little more practice.

One last bit, Wade… What's your handicap index? You don't seem to have any scores posted to GHIN.

7 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Sometimes you are making a change which seems to help only later to find out that you are making a compensation for a compensation which may be a compensation for another compensation.

A good example of that: a golfer flips and hits the ball fat and thin (and too high when he hits it well), so he moves the ball back in his stance, then comes here to post about how he's fixed his swing by ignoring the customary advice to play the ball forward of center! He might even find a bad camera angle view of a Tour player showing this, but… he's just compensated (badly) for some other compensations. It isn't a good thing in the long term, as it will just encourage further flipping.

5 hours ago, Vinsk said:

That’s really quite disingenuous of you to say. We’ve seen this dozens of times. Someone comes here to post their ‘revelations’ and become disgruntled if any facts are presented that in any way contradict what they feel they’ve discovered. It’s a poor attitude and closes any learning. You feel justified in your revelation because you found an instructor who agrees with you. You immediately take to him without question simply for that.

I don't know if he took to MDLT because of this, but… I agree in principle with the rest of what you said, while feeling maybe the teeniest bit less harsh about it (not that you were harsh, just that I'm even less so here).

If you think something works for you, great! But be careful.

I'm only here ever trying to help people.

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

1. No one is running you off. Just because you express your opinion does not mean it will not be contested and questioned.

Yes, @Wade Patton, let's be adults here.

Also, your last post was awhile ago, and I didn't tag you or reply to you after October 26. And in that post, I wrote that I thought you were done with this topic.

Anyway… just trying to help, and to share what I believe to be true. I don't put much faith in anecdotes. Nor should you. Why guess when you can measure?

[phillyk]

Every time someone says relax the hands, I say relax the wrists. A way to do that is shake the elbows a bit. Hard to shake them if wrists are tight.

It’s funny how when I’m working with someone and I grab their hands to adjust the position, you can feel how firm and tight it is. It’s a hard thing to see visually.