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2022 OH/PA/NY/MI TST Outing - July 30th @ Reserve Run (OH)
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"5 Minutes Daily" Practice Challenge 1 2 3 4 900
By iacas, in Instruction and Playing Tips
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By bkuehn1952 ·
Four years ago, I created a spreadsheet. My count currently stands at 283. At the rate I am adding new courses (about 3-4 a year), I am not venturing out to new venues often enough. Sadly, 21 of the courses no longer exist. -
By bkuehn1952 ·
This discussion, unfortunately, got me thinking about all the seniors in our club that still use long putters. Now I am going to be assessing these guy's putting strokes rather than assessing my putting line. 😉 -
By dkjestrup ·
I agree, this is correct. I'm not disagreeing that this is how the ball moves. I also agree with this. I don't mean to imply that the movement of the clubface in the grip throughout the swing (i.e the opening/closing) matters, only at impact. Yes, the start line is 75% clubface angle at impact. I'm also not disagreeing with this. What I'm saying though, is that the clubface angle at impact, is created by both the clubface angle in your hands, and the direction of your swing. The clubface angle in your hands moves with your swing - obviously, because your hands are attached to your arms/body. To give another example, if you closed the clubface 5 degrees in your hands, then gripped the club. And then you aimed 10 degrees right of target. Your clubface is 5 degrees open to the target at impact, correct? If you instead grip the club at neutral/0 degrees and aim straight at the target. Throughout your swing you will create a clubface angle relative to your swing path by some combination of wrist movement. If you put a camera on your lead forearm looking at the clubface, you would see this angle. If this is 5 degrees closed, and your swing path is 10 degrees in to out, then your final clubface angle relative to target is still 5 degrees open. I agree that when it comes to coaching there's an individual part of it for the student. But my argument here is that you're agreeing with me on the root cause. Fixing the clubface - relative to path, which is the angle of the clubface relative to your forearms - fixes the slice, fixing the swing path fixes the pull. And often the pull is caused by someone trying to overcompensate for their slice in the first place. -
By iacas ·
I disagree. I "share" the ball flight laws in this form: "the golf ball starts in the general direction of the clubface at impact and curves away from the path." That describes all you need to know: For a pull-slice, the ball starts left (face left of target) and the path is farther to the left. For a push-draw, the ball starts right (face right of target) and the path is farther to the right. For a push-slice, the ball starts right (face right of target) and the path is farther to the right. The only clarity is that, for example, Lee Trevino played a push-fade, he just lined up well to the left, so the words "push" and "pull" can sometimes, depending on the context, mean relative to the body alignment. Your point about the clubface opening and closing throughout the swing is moot. The ball doesn't care whether the face is open or closed to the path at P2 or even P6.9. It cares at P7. Your "more accurate version" just muddies the water and makes it more confusing, when we know that for almost every full swing club where you're worried about curve… the start line is 75%+ clubface angle. So again: "the golf ball starts in the general direction of the clubface at impact and curves away from the path." Yes, when I'm working with someone who hits a pull-slice, I often fix the clubface first, because I see their natural reaction to the ball going right to try to subconsciously swing left… but there are times I will teach people to change the path first and tell them to keep doing that and aim left and play a push-fade like Trevino. It comes down to knowing the student, and/or knowing how far off they are. But that's teaching. The ball flight laws as we share them are perfectly fine. Sure, as you get to advanced students you start to talk about the rare times the face can be closer to 60% of the starting direction, or you start to talk about the gear effect. But for 99% of situations, the ball flight laws are fine, and nothing you shared, regardless of the bold text, does anything to convince me otherwise. You're just muddying it up, making a simple sentence that works into a muddier, more complex sentence that doesn't actually give us any benefits. -
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