Jump to content
IGNORED

Drills to make swing inside out


Note: This thread is 3182 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

That's my point, if your club face is open to the path you can't possibly hit the outside quadrant. That can only be achieved if the club face is closed to the path. Target doesn't matter.

I may be completely crazy here, but if I align facing left and I swing over the top, I'm going to hit the outside quadrant of the golf ball. I think our debate here stems from what constitutes the outside quadrant. We are talking about the quadrants of the golf ball sitting on a tee in relation to the target. If I set my ball on the tee with a line drawn across the entire ball, and point that line at the target. I can easily swing over the top and "across" the ball with a slight open face and contact that ball on the outer (right side of line) quadrant of the ball. I'm clearly hitting the outside quadrant of the ball in the photo above. And since my path is further left than my club face, the ball is going to start left and fade back to the middle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I'm clearly hitting the outside quadrant of the ball in the photo above. And since my path is further left than my club face, the ball is going to start left and fade back to the middle.

It seems like if you setup reasonably, then wouldn't your arms have to get longer or something to stretch the club that far out as shown in your picture?

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

It seems like if you setup reasonably, then wouldn't your arms have to get longer or something to stretch the club that far out as shown in your picture?

No. If you play a slice and set up aligned left, and swing over the top, this is exactly how you're going to contact the golf ball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

It seems like if you setup reasonably, then wouldn't your arms have to get longer or something to stretch the club that far out as shown in your picture?

No. If you play a slice and set up aligned left, and swing over the top, this is exactly how you're going to contact the golf ball.

I'll probably test this out by marking some range balls with a sharpie. Probably good for me to do anyway.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I'll probably test this out by marking some range balls with a sharpie. Probably good for me to do anyway.

To get this thread back on topic, I have indeed marked my ball on the inside back quadrant and focused on trying to make contact there. Oddly enough it was something I read in the parody book about Tiger Woods, "The Swinger". Now that I think about it, the best I ever hit my driver was the year after I started doing this. I would always rotate my sharpie mark into the inside quadrant and focus on it. I need to start doing that again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I disagree. I hit draws from an open stance. A TON of amateurs hit slices with a stance well right of target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

There are not three ball flights. There are nine. All nine (though rarely the "straight" ones) are used by PGA Tour players as their stock shot.

No there are just three possible flights, its the three paths that make the explanation of nine flights a possibility. That's my point. I am not disputing that nine flights can be explained but we all know there are only 3 possibilities... slice, straight or hook. I agree with your straight analogy, that would be a very difficult flight to achieve consistently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Nicklaus passed "that point" before he struck virtually every ball he hit from the fairway depending on how you define it. They point isn't low point, but it is when the path starts going back "in."

I'm no expert (perhaps there are examples of pros who hit fairway shots after low point but I know none) but I'm sure Nicklaus et al hit fairway shots before low point in normal fairway conditions. If this is the case, then it stands to reason, that impact was before the club path returned to in. If you visualise the inclined arc, it can't be returned to in during the downward sector.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Look you're just being too rigid and limiting. With a body alignment adjusted to 0, majors have been won by players with paths at low point (i.e. HSP or Swing Direction) of anywhere from about -10 to about +10. Again, that's relative to their alignment. Trevino swing out a bunch and hit baby cuts after all.

Trevino, Couples, Lehman aimed well left and all swung out in the down swing. A bit Furyk like only he stands more square. BTW, I didn't realise Lehman hit hooks/draws.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I may be completely crazy here, but if I align facing left and I swing over the top, I'm going to hit the outside quadrant of the golf ball. I think our debate here stems from what constitutes the outside quadrant. We are talking about the quadrants of the golf ball sitting on a tee in relation to the target.

If I set my ball on the tee with a line drawn across the entire ball, and point that line at the target. I can easily swing over the top and "across" the ball with a slight open face and contact that ball on the outer (right side of line) quadrant of the ball.

I'm clearly hitting the outside quadrant of the ball in the photo above. And since my path is further left than my club face, the ball is going to start left and fade back to the middle.

Only relative to target, not relative to path. point your line relative to path and you'll see that only a closed face can hit the outer quadrant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Only relative to target, not relative to path. point your line relative to path and you'll see that only a closed face can hit the outer quadrant.

Lol. Yeah. But by that logic, it's impossible to hit the inner quadrant as well. If you are basing everything off of club path, then you will always hit the very back of the ball. It's a round object. But we aren't talking about that. We are talking about visualizing hitting the inner back quadrant of the ball at setup (in relation to target line). So yes, it's possible to hit both the inner quadrant with a closed face, and an outer quadrant with an open face, because we are talking about the quadrants of the ball at address in relation to the target line. And yes, you have to swing very OOT and across the ball to hit the outside quadrant with an open face. But I play with guys who do it every week. A couple guys in my group play a substantial banana slice that starts way left, and slices back about 50 yards into the fairway. There is no question at all that they are hitting the outer back quadrant of the ball (relative to target, sitting on the tee). They lean forward at the start of their downswing and turn their entire upper body left before coming down and across the ball. They line up further left to "play" the slice, only exaggerating the slice further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Trevino, Couples, Lehman aimed well left and all swung out in the down swing. A bit Furyk like only he stands more square. BTW, I didn't realise Lehman hit hooks/draws.

Yes, Lehman draws every ball aiming his body left.

Trevino, Couples, Ryan Moore hit fades swinging in to OUT (relative to their body lines).

Example of a stock push fade:

Relative to target: body alignment 8 ° lef t, face 2 ° left.

Relative to the body alignment: Swing outward (to the right) 4 ° , that gets the overall path 4 ° left (golfer aimed 8 ° left). Ball starts left of the target but right of the body lines (push) and curves to the right.

Sorry, I can't get my head round using an open stance to hit a draw. Perhaps you could give an example for when a golfer would require such a shot. The amateurs using a closed stance when they are slicing the ball must be getting into a lot of trouble. I'm betting they are not planning to do this.

Path can be instinctual so if a player aims too far right they'll want to swing towards the target, resulting in them swinging across their body. Opposite for a guy like Lehman who aims left and swings well outward. He might aim 2-3 ° left and swing 4-6° to the right.

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

Example of a stock push fade:

Relative to target: body alignment 8° left, face 2° left.

Relative to the body alignment: Swing outward (to the right) 4°, that gets the overall path 4° left (golfer aimed 8° left). Ball starts left of the target but right of the body lines (push) and curves to the right.

After much thought I have decided that for this shot, the club face is 2° open to path at impact. What complicates this equation is the loop in the path in the down swing. Am I right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Are they straight pushes? Push cuts? Do the ones that start 5 yards right draw back?

For the most part, my shots end up being a striaght push. The shots that start out 5 yards to the right sometimes draw back to the target.

Driver: Cobra Fly Z Plus, Stock Stiff,  10.5
3 Wood: TaylorMade AeroBurner, Stock Stiff, 15.0
3 Hybrid: Nike Vapor Speed, Stock Stiff, 20.0
4 to GW: Mizuno JPX EZ, KBS Tour 120
54: Cleveland Tour Action, Standard Bounce
58: Nike VR Vx3x Grooves, Toe Sweep
Putter: Odyssey Versa
Grips: Golf Pride Tour Wrap 2G
Ball: Titleist NXT Tour

"Golf is not a game of good shots.  It's a game of bad shots." - Ben Hogan

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator

Two quick threads for you to please read @Bileyerheid :

  • Please multiquote:
  • Please watch indented text:

Because this borders on OT stuff, I've put it in a spoiler tag.

Sorry, I can't get my head round using an open stance to hit a draw.

Why? You later pointed out that Tom Lehman does it. I hit better draws with an open (to the target) stance because my body "senses" the target being "out there to the right" and thus I "swing out at it." My brother-in-law his some pretty great draws aimed nearly 20° left of the target. He slices it like crazy when aimed square to right of the target.

Perhaps you could give an example for when a golfer would require such a shot.

What do you mean "require" such a shot? That's my stock shot. It's how I play golf. It's how Tom Lehman played golf. It's how many players play golf, many great players.

No there are just three possible flights

Obviously the ball can only curve left, right, or not at all… but you seem to be a fan of "losing information." A "draw" is not very informative. It only tells you that the ball curved left. A "pull-draw" and a "push-draw" have more information, and that information can lead to you understanding that the shots are likely to have some very different flight characteristics. For example, pull-draws are likely to be lower.

I'm no expert (perhaps there are examples of pros who hit fairway shots after low point but I know none)

You seem to have missed the part where I pointed out that I was not talking about low point, but rather that I was talking about where the ball was struck after the club had started to go back "in."

Trevino, Couples, Lehman aimed well left and all swung out in the down swing. A bit Furyk like only he stands more square. BTW, I didn't realise Lehman hit hooks/draws.

Relative to the target, Lehman was swinging right of the target line despite being lined up well left, and Trevino was swinging a bit left - back "in" again - with a stance WAY left.

Lol. Yeah. But by that logic, it's impossible to hit the inner quadrant as well. If you are basing everything off of club path, then you will always hit the very back of the ball. It's a round object.

No, point the clubface right, swing down the target line exactly. Voilà: you hit the inner quadrant (or half). Point the clubface right and you can hit the outer half. Path does not dictate contact point - face angle does.

Here's an image: http://iacas.org/f/4oclock.jpg .

Here's a thread:

Both are somewhat related to this.

But we aren't talking about that. We are talking about visualizing hitting the inner back quadrant of the ball at setup (in relation to target line).

I agree that visualizing hitting the inner quadrant can work. I don't particularly like it (and the reality is that it's still mostly face angle of course), but some others like it.

So yes, it's possible to hit both the inner quadrant with a closed face, and an outer quadrant with an open face, because we are talking about the quadrants of the ball at address in relation to the target line.

Not if the "closed" and "open" are relative to the same target line.

If you're talking about relative to the path, yeah, but that's why I don't particularly care to use vague terms like "open" and "closed" without at least specifying what they're closed and open to .

And yes, you have to swing very OOT and across the ball to hit the outside quadrant with an open face. But I play with guys who do it every week.

Using your definition of "open" as "relative to the path" that's not really accurate: you can swing 2° left and have the face 1° left and hit the outside quadrant of the ball. Not by a lot, but okay… swing 3° left with a face 2° left (target line). More outside quadrant. Both might be perfectly playable shots and not OTT at all.

After much thought I have decided that for this shot, the club face is 2° open to path at impact. What complicates this equation is the loop in the path in the down swing. Am I right?

What's to think about? 8-4=4. 4-2=2. That was about all there was…

And what loop? Maybe that's just the guy's swing. His HSP or "Swing Direction" don't HAVE to be exactly aligned with his body.

Push-fade. If I told you face was 2° left of target line and path was 4° left of target line, you would know the ball faded… but not whether it was a push fade, "straight fade," or a pull-fade. Body alignment tells you that… and is more informative than just "fade."

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

For the most part, my shots end up being a striaght push. The shots that start out 5 yards to the right sometimes draw back to the target.

Ok so the face is basically matching up with the path and I'm assuming somewhat centered face contact. There might be an issue with the way you're trying to swing out, some golfers make the mistake of shallowing out their torso and staying closed for too long. Tough to say without seeing a swing.

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by iacas

Two quick threads for you to please read @Bileyerheid:

Please multiquote:

Please watch indented text:

Got it.

BTW, surely a minimalist or uncomplicated view of the flight laws can't be a bad thing. IMO we should refer to face angles relative to path, then we wouldn't have to do any sums. It's also easier to align and feel face angles relative to path than to target. It would also help stop the confusion about hitting outer quadrants with open club faces. I understand your stock draw but I think it would confuse the OP. I'm sure your brother in law and Trevino and co would feel awkward aiming right of target no matter what. As I mentioned earlier in this post, the OP would have a better chance of learning to swing in to out if he understood the simple basics of path. It behooves this board to explain the mechanics of the inside out swing with the simplist explanations.

Phew, I seem to have got that off my chest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


BTW, surely a minimalist or uncomplicated view of the flight laws can't be a bad thing. IMO we should refer to face angles relative to path, then we wouldn't have to do any sums. It's also easier to align and feel face angles relative to path than to target. It would also help stop the confusion about hitting outer quadrants with open club faces. I understand your stock draw but I think it would confuse the OP. I'm sure your brother in law and Trevino and co would feel awkward aiming right of target no matter what. As I mentioned earlier in this post, the OP would have a better chance of learning to swing in to out if he understood the simple basics of path. It behooves this board to explain the mechanics of the inside out swing with the simplist explanations. Phew, I seem to have got that off my chest.

WTFO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 3182 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Popular Now

  • Posts

    • Makes sense.  Like I said, I wouldn't have been upset at their original offer either, and based on the fine print it seems like they've held up their end of the deal.  
    • If you've only had to adjust retroactively one time in 8 years and have around 5 people each year without handicaps, that's like 40-50 people total so it sounds like you're doing a pretty good job. I think your questions give enough to go off of. This might be a good way to get new people to actually post a few scores during the 6 weeks leading into the first event. Something like "New members will be eligible for tournament money once they have at least 3 posted rounds in GHIN" or something like that. If they can get 3 rounds in prior to their first event, then they're eligible. If not, they'll soon become eligible after an event or two assuming they play a little bit outside of events.
    • This is a loooooong winded narrative so if you don't like long stories, move on. 😉 Our senior club typically gets about 25 new members each year. We lose about 25 members each year for various reasons (moved to FL/AZ, disabled, dead, too expensive). Of the new members, usually 20 have an active GHIN handicap. About 5 each year do not have a GHIN handicap. When they join our club, we give each member a state association membership that includes GHIN handicapping services. We play a series of handicapped tournaments over the summer. When we sign up a new member who does not have a GHIN handicap, we attempt to give them an estimated index until they have sufficient scores posted to have an actual GHIN index.  Our first event typically is around May 15 so, in theory, a new member has about 6 weeks to post a few scores. Posting season in the Mitten starts April 1. Inevitably, several of the unhandicapped individuals seem  to either not play until the first tournament or can't figure out how to enter scores (hey, they are seniors). That situation then leads to my contacting the new member and asking a series of questions: a. Did you ever have a GHIN handicap? If yes, which State and do you recall what it was? b. Do you have an alternate handicap through a non-GHIN handicap service or a league? c. What do you think your average score was last year (for 9 or 18) d. What was your best score last year? Where did you play and which tee was used? e. What do you consider a very good score for yourself? Based on their responses I attempt to give them an index that makes them competitive in the first couple events BUT does not allow them to win their flight in the first couple events. We don't want the new members to finish last and at the same time, we don't want someone with a "20" playing handicap to win the third flight with a net 57. In the event some new member did shoot a net 57, we also advise everyone that we can and will adjust handicaps retroactively when it is clear to us that a member's handicap does not accurately reflect their potential. We don't like to adjust things retroactively and in the 8 years I have chaired the Handicap Committee, we have only done it once. So here are the questions to the mob: Any ideas how to do this better? Any questions one might ask an unhandicapped individual to better estimate their index/handicap? Would it be reasonable to have a new player play once (or more?) without being eligible to place in the money?
    • Wordle 1,013 4/6 ⬜🟨⬜🟨🟨 ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ 🟩🟩🟩🟩⬜ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
    • Awesome! I got that a while back with my start word! Wordle 1,013 4/6 ⬜⬜🟨⬜🟨 ⬜🟨⬜🟩⬜ ⬜⬜🟩🟩🟨 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...