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Relative Importance of the Long Game, Short Game, etc. (Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, LSW, etc.)

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12 hours ago, Lihu said:

In general, it's tough to generalize on any statement like "Drive for show and putt for dough." but it's also tough to generalize and say "a 270 yard average player will always beat the 225 yard player" as well.

It's not tough to generalize. "Drive for show, putt for dough" is wrong/bad/incorrect/misleading. Take your pick.

And again I took that original topic from 12 years ago to be mostly about distance. Distance matters (distance off the tee exclusively matters even less than "distance" too). But it's only a portion of the "full swing" stuff that matters a lot.

Anyway…

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12 hours ago, Lihu said:

Good thread. . .

Actually, I read Erik's first few responses, and they seem consistent with whatever he says now. Some people were beating you up but at least half agreed with what you stated in your OP.

Yet, there are plenty of 225 yard average golfers who play better than 270 yard golfers because of a pretty amazing short game and a command of their long irons and woods. I'm sure you run into the senior player who hits a Driver then 3W on a 400 yard hole and ends up rolling onto the green consistently.

Well, some people equate long game with length alone. Straight is a huge factor as well. Length without the ability to find the darn thing is pretty useless. All other aspects of the their games being equal someone who hits the ball farther will win as they should have a better chance of getting the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes. That being said in the real world that would never happen as people's games would almost never be equal in all other areas.

12 hours ago, Lihu said:

In general, it's tough to generalize on any statement like "Drive for show and putt for dough." but it's also tough to generalize and say "a 270 yard average player will always beat the 225 yard player" as well.

And I never said that, too many factors exist. I just never did buy into the "practice your short game 80% of the time" theory for the mere fact that even the best players on the planet only get it up and down at an average of about 60% of the time. I mean the best guy on tour only gets it up and down 67% of the time. So even the best amateur can only hope to achieve 50%. (although there are people on this forum who would make you think they get it up and down 90% of the time ;-))

Basically my belief has always been to be successful you have to have as many looks at birdie as possible, so you have to have as many GIRs as possible which means you have to be in the best position possible to hit greens. Which in turn means hit it as long as you can AND hit it where you can find it. Even the best hybrid player on the planet from 225 yards is not as good as I am with sand wedge from 110.

Like Lee Trevino said, "There are two things that won't last long in this world, and that's dogs chasing cars and pros putting for pars." You can only get it up and down so often so there is a direct correlation between GIR and scoring well. if you miss 10 greens on average even the best player is looking at a score of +4. 
 

Edited by NM Golf

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34 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's not tough to generalize. "Drive for show, putt for dough" is wrong/bad/incorrect/misleading. Take your pick.

And again I took that original topic from 12 years ago to be mostly about distance. Distance matters (distance off the tee exclusively matters even less than "distance" too). But it's only a portion of the "full swing" stuff that matters a lot.

Anyway…

That's true, I've never actually seen anyone use their putter from the tee to the hole in a reasonable number of strokes before. :-D

 

27 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Well, some people equate long game with length alone. Straight is a huge factor as well. Length without the ability to find the darn thing is pretty useless. All other aspects of the their games being equal someone who hits the ball farther will win as they should have a better chance of getting the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes. That being said in the real world that would never happen as people's games would almost never be equal in all other areas.

And I never said that, too many factors exist. I just never did buy into the "practice your short game 80% of the time" theory for the mere fact that even the best players on the planet only get it up and down at an average of about 60% of the time. I mean the best guy on tour only gets it up and down 67% of the time. So even the best amateur can only hope to achieve 50%. (although there are people on this forum who would make you think they get it up and down 90% of the time ;-))

Basically my belief has always been to be successful you have to have as many looks at birdie as possible, so you have to have as many GIRs as possible which means you have to be in the best position possible to hit greens. Which in turn means hit it as long as you can AND hit it where you can find it. Even the best hybrid player on the planet from 225 yards is not as good as I am with sand wedge from 110.

Like Lee Trevino said, "There are two things that won't last long in this world, and that's dogs chasing cars and pros putting for pars." You can only get it up and down so often so there is a direct correlation between GIR and scoring well. if you miss 10 greens on average even the best player is looking at a score of +4. 
 

To add to this and joking aside, I see a lot more people on the driving range practicing fulls swings than in the short game area. It seems like people either consciously or subconsciously know that long game is a very important part of their games.

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1 minute ago, Lihu said:

To add to this and joking aside, I see a lot more people on the driving range practicing fulls swings than in the short game area. It seems like people either consciously or subconsciously know that long game is a very important part of their games.

I think they just enjoy hitting driver more than they enjoy putting or chipping.

Very few of those golfers are really "practicing" anything close to properly.

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1 minute ago, iacas said:

I think they just enjoy hitting driver more than they enjoy putting or chipping.

Very few of those golfers are really "practicing" anything close to properly.

True enough, especially on your second statement. . .

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Swinging fast is a skill, too.

(But again, remember too, that "long game" means "full swing," not just "hitting it long.")

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49 minutes ago, iacas said:

Swinging fast is a skill, too.

(But again, remember too, that "long game" means "full swing," not just "hitting it long.")

Sorry, I'm not up on the tech, but these numbers are driver only averages?  I think I was averaging around 107 or 108  today on the machine at my range, but I wasn't sure how to work it.   It was flashing a faster number too but maybe that was the ball speed.  A little slow relative to the above number but they were dead range balls.  

I don't feel like my swing is as loose and free as it could be and I probably swing harder than I should.  I wonder how close to 100% most pros are swinging.

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On 9/22/2017 at 8:04 AM, Runnin said:

Sorry, I'm not up on the tech, but these numbers are driver only averages?

Average on the course.

 

Quote

I think I was averaging around 107 or 108  today on the machine at my range, but I wasn't sure how to work it.   It was flashing a faster number too but maybe that was the ball speed.  A little slow relative to the above number but they were dead range balls.  

Do you swing as fast on the course as on the range? Most people I know don't, because on the course you hit only 10-14 drives interspersed over 3 to 4 hours. It's not like you're "dialed in" or anything?

I've read in a biography, when I was into reading golfer biographies, that one particular golfer averaged only 260 on the PGA tour but when "fooling around" could hit 300 yards on the fly into a window. It's in a book with a title like "Long shot on the PGA Tour" or something to that effect.

There should be no reason to believe that the LM you use is incorrect, and it's likely they tweaked the numbers to account for the range balls already. Dead range balls versus premium balls differ in LM readings by something under 3% if they're limited flight balls. The range ball tweak factor in Trackman maxes out at something like 5%. If they are not limited flight balls the readings would be the same.

So, my guess is the 116.6 number would be more like 125 under your same range conditions while your readings are in the 108 range. I'd also guess that they would hit their balls a lot straighter than you.

 

Quote

I don't feel like my swing is as loose and free as it could be and I probably swing harder than I should.  I wonder how close to 100% most pros are swinging.

They are possibly 10% or less than their absolute maximum? I was told by a web player that he swings less hard during competition, but there are some shots he "goes for it". He was consistently carrying significantly more than 300 that day, but was just "having fun". . .His plus handicap friend hit range balls on the course and flew them more than 270 yards. :whistle:

Edited by Lihu

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On 9/21/2017 at 11:45 AM, Shindig said:

Well, where are you losing strokes compared to where you want to be?  

Also, I know I sound like a broken mp3 telling everyone this in response to your question, but consider a Game Golf.  They're slightly more than $100 off Amazon now and helped me narrow onto where I was losing strokes.  I also had a round where one of my skills was at 0 strokes lost compared to Scratch (for that round at least) and that feeling was well worth every penny I paid for the device. 

Just posting to 2nd the GG opinion, absolutely love it when combined with LSW.

The mindset it created led to me catching up to other friends who have played for years  by focusing on full-swing in my 1st 3 Summers of golf.

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On ‎09‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 11:46 AM, Lihu said:

Basically my belief has always been to be successful you have to have as many looks at birdie as possible, so you have to have as many GIRs as possible which means you have to be in the best position possible to hit greens. Which in turn means hit it as long as you can AND hit it where you can find it. Even the best hybrid player on the planet from 225 yards is not as good as I am with sand wedge from 110.

Last year I was in the short game camp. Spent a lot of time chipping and putting, at targets. Really helped my chipping and putting. I can see where this is easily done by most any golfer. It's not as physically challenging. But I wasn't getting any GIR's.

This year spent some time on driver (tee shots generally), second shot off the fairway, trying to keep it in front of me in the short grass. Love to say I'm seeing lots of birdies, but from where I started, I'm happy to be able to start seeing GIR's, a few more pars and fewer doubles and triples.

My drives are straighter and in much safer places. Gonna spend a bit more time on that this winter.

Short game or long game, to me , is like solving pi.

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16 minutes ago, uitar9 said:

Last year I was in the short game camp. Spent a lot of time chipping and putting, at targets. Really helped my chipping and putting. I can see where this is easily done by most any golfer. It's not as physically challenging. But I wasn't getting any GIR's.

This year spent some time on driver (tee shots generally), second shot off the fairway, trying to keep it in front of me in the short grass. Love to say I'm seeing lots of birdies, but from where I started, I'm happy to be able to start seeing GIR's, a few more pars and fewer doubles and triples.

My drives are straighter and in much safer places. Gonna spend a bit more time on that this winter.

Nice!

I'm just starting my golf season down here and am awaiting the results of that as well.

:beer:

16 minutes ago, uitar9 said:

Short game or long game, to me , is like solving pi.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2124418-celebrate-pi-day-with-9-trillion-more-digits-than-ever-before/

I sure hope not. . .:-D

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