Dress Codes: Good or Bad for the Game?

[David in FL]

28 minutes ago, jamo said:

 

I have a bunch of these shirts because they're very inexpensive ($9 at Kohl's), they're comfortable, the material is soft and durable, they don't have logos, and they look nice. I stridently disagree that Nike's blade collar looks better than these, and the only difference between these shirts and a mock turtleneck is a half inch of material.

And no, I'm not a huge fan of collars. Why would anyone be? I wear them when I have to, but they feel uncomfortable and restricting. Not my favorite attributes in clothing when I'm playing a sport. 

This is my whole "argument." I just wish something like this was acceptable at more/most golf courses when paired with khaki shorts. Not a shirt slathered with a band name, not a shirt covered in holes that hasn't been washed in a month, not paired with cutoff jorts. I don't think I look like a slob in one of these shirts, though maybe you have a different opinion. 

I don't disagree with you at all.

I suspect that the issue is how to communicate expectations with relatively few words that shouldn't (note I didn't say "can't  ) be subjectively misinterpreted.  "Collared shirt and no denim" is pretty straight forward....

[arab_joe]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:25 PM, iacas said:

We're not going to get anywhere so long as you maintain that you're this rare special flower who isn't influenced at all by appearances.

I'm influenced by appearances in certain situations...  but I'm pretty confident that I'm not positively influenced to attend/spend a course because of the dress sense (which, ironically, frequently doesn't improve simply by complying with a dress code - some of the unfortunate sunglasses/visor/polo shirt/loud trouser/white sock combinations are amongst the worst outfits I have ever seen, anywhere) of its players.  It really is as simple as that. 

On 11/2/2017 at 10:50 PM, NM Golf said:

As a long time (15 years) employee of a municipal golf course without a dress code I can say that I have never had to kick someone off the course who was dressed appropriately. 100% of the idiots I deal with are dressed in tee shirts, sweats, jeans, etc.

Just because you dress like a slob on the course doesn't mean you will act like an idiot, but if you act like an idiot I guarantee you will also be dressed like a slob. This is my opinion, but its backed up by 15 years of experience. 

Your 15 years' of experience certainly trumps my anecdotal views/opinions! 

It would be interesting (to me, at least, in my geeky obsession with the sustainability of golf) to see how such a course would be impacted by implementing a dress code.

 

This popped up on my Twitter feed over the weekend, from one of the UK golf websites; I thought it was an interesting interview with someone far more knowledgeable than me:

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/denis-pugh-golf-dress-codes/

[JonMA1]

6 hours ago, arab_joe said:

This popped up on my Twitter feed over the weekend, from one of the UK golf websites; I thought it was an interesting interview with someone far more knowledgeable than me:

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/denis-pugh-golf-dress-codes/

Great article and well-written. Thanks for sharing.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, arab_joe said:

I'm influenced by appearances in certain situations...  but I'm pretty confident that I'm not positively influenced to attend/spend a course because of the dress sense

You've once again ignored the fact that virtually everywhere in life, there's a dress code. I'd say that, overall, it's "good" for society that we have these dress codes, too, and maybe you can start to understand the thinking behind the 84% or whatever.

It really is as simple as that. 

[David in FL]

8 hours ago, arab_joe said:

 

This popped up on my Twitter feed over the weekend, from one of the UK golf websites; I thought it was an interesting interview with someone far more knowledgeable than me:

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/denis-pugh-golf-dress-codes/

What knowledgeable?  He admits in the article that it's simply his personal opinion, and one that's far in the minority.

As we've pretty much confirmed with our little poll and discussion here.

 

[NM Golf]

On 11/4/2017 at 7:14 AM, jamo said:

And no, I'm not a huge fan of collars. Why would anyone be? I wear them when I have to, but they feel uncomfortable and restricting. Not my favorite attributes in clothing when I'm playing a sport. 

I don't find them restricting at all, actually I find the opposite to be true. 

[arab_joe]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

You've once again ignored the fact that virtually everywhere in life, there's a dress code. I'd say that, overall, it's "good" for society that we have these dress codes, too, and maybe you can start to understand the thinking behind the 84% or whatever.

It really is as simple as that. 

I have ignored the fact that there are dress codes "virtually everywhere in life" because I do not see the relevance; the discussion is whether they are good for the game of golf... and yes, I am aware that my view is in the (pretty small) minority but that alone is not going to dissuade me.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, arab_joe said:

I have ignored the fact that there are dress codes "virtually everywhere in life" because I do not see the relevance; the discussion is whether they are good for the game of golf... and yes, I am aware that my view is in the (pretty small) minority but that alone is not going to dissuade me.

The logic is that dress codes exist because they're "good" to some extent. Appearances matter.

[NM Golf]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Appearances matter.

^^^^Bingo^^^^ 

At least I believe they should. I just don't understand someone who just rails against the act of dressing a little nicer in order to show respect. What's wrong with that? Polite society is crumbling.

And the whole traditional golf clothes are uncomfortable argument I just don't buy. My golf shorts are more comfortable than my cargos. My golf shirts are cooler and just as comfortable, if not more so, as a tee shirt. My golf pants have 4 way stretch and are easily the most comfortable pants I own, way more comfortable than jeans.  Golf clothes are engineered to be worn while playing golf, wicking moisture away, non restricting. To say they are not comfortable is a ridiculous argument.  

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, NM Golf said:

At least I believe they should. I just don't understand someone who just rails against the act of dressing a little nicer in order to show respect. What's wrong with that? Polite society is crumbling.

I don't think dressing in a polo and khakis to play golf "shows respect," nor do I think being required to do so shows respect to anything. My arguments are more practical, IMO, and honestly, yours feels weak and so I'm arguing against it because I don't want weak arguments on my side of things.

1 hour ago, NM Golf said:

And the whole traditional golf clothes are uncomfortable argument I just don't buy.

Has anyone other than @jamo said that?

1 hour ago, NM Golf said:

Golf clothes are engineered to be worn while playing golf, wicking moisture away, non restricting. To say they are not comfortable is a ridiculous argument.  

Comfort is a personal opinion, man. My wife is comfortable under ten blankets while I'd be sweating like the pig in the ground at a Hawaiian luau.

---

Dressing up for a funeral? Yeah, that can show respect. But that's fairly different IMO than the difference between pants with or without an extra pocket or two on the golf course.

[NM Golf]

Just now, iacas said:

I don't think dressing in a polo and khakis to play golf "shows respect," nor do I think being required to do so shows respect to anything. My arguments are more practical, IMO, and honestly, yours feels weak and so I'm arguing against it because I don't want weak arguments on my side of things.

Not specifically talking about golf when I said that, more of a society as a whole type of thing, hence the society comment. I believe, as you had also stated, that dress codes that exist in society, and are good things for the most part. But hey I will try not to agree with you anymore if it makes you uncomfortable.

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Has anyone other than @jamo said that?

No

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Comfort is a personal opinion, man. My wife is comfortable under ten blankets while I'd be sweating like the pig in the ground at a Hawaiian luau.

I thought opinions were allowed, my bad.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

I thought opinions were allowed, my bad.

Dan, there's a huge difference between "I find golf clothes comfortable" and "To say they are not comfortable is a ridiculous argument."

[mdl]

On 10/30/2017 at 12:22 PM, Golfingdad said:

The greens fees are what drive the clientele and dress, not the dress code, in my opinion.

This.  There's a night lit par 3 down in Pacific Beach (San Diego) that I played a ton one summer years ago.  Don't know if it's still there.  Lots of guys in cargos, ratty t-shirts, smoking bowls on the greens (not that I'm against that, just hurts my play), etc.  Played with some solid players still who just wanted a cheap 9 holes.

In general, and along these lines, I propose that people have the causation sort of backwards.  I hypothesize that players who feel free to dress in ratty clothes at courses where there's an implicit, but not required dress code or standard of typical dress, are also the type of people who, on average, respect the physical course and other players less.  So, someone who shows up at a decent course in an ostentatiously ratty outfit is probably more likely to hold up the pace of play searching for lost drives forever or some such, or to never have bothered to learn the basic rules of golf etiquette and course care.

[weekend hacker1]

Quite surprised that so many went for A. I didn't think Americans were into all that antiquated British style snobbery.

[caniac6]

We have a very nice private club in our area that allows members to play six and eightsomes but does not allow mock turtles or shorts with the flat scorecard pockets on the leg. Not cargos, just a flat pocket. It seems strange that they are so loose with some rules, and so strict with others.

[Fourputt]

6 hours ago, NM Golf said:

^^^^Bingo^^^^ 

At least I believe they should. I just don't understand someone who just rails against the act of dressing a little nicer in order to show respect. What's wrong with that? Polite society is crumbling.

And the whole traditional golf clothes are uncomfortable argument I just don't buy. My golf shorts are more comfortable than my cargos. My golf shirts are cooler and just as comfortable, if not more so, as a tee shirt. My golf pants have 4 way stretch and are easily the most comfortable pants I own, way more comfortable than jeans.  Golf clothes are engineered to be worn while playing golf, wicking moisture away, non restricting. To say they are not comfortable is a ridiculous argument.  

 

As has been mentioned before, what you suggest is not "traditional".  Traditional would be something more like plus fours and a tweed jacket with shirt and tie.  The style that you call traditional only extends back to the 60's or 70's, and the fabrics you love are far newer than that.  

Dress codes are purely arbitrary, and reflect what the originators see as "proper".  Actions show respect or disrespect far more clearly than attire possibly can.

[DaveP043]

I was thinking about WHO actually defines dress codes, and why they do it.  Its actually the owners and managers of golf courses, with involvement (in some cases) from the members and players, especially at private clubs.  But Why?  I believe in every case, they're doing what they believe is in the best interests of each individual establishment.  These decisions are NEVER made for the purpose of harming the business.  Some are certainly trying to project an image, to current or prospective members, or to potential customers.  Image is marketing, attracting business.  And business is good for the clubs and courses.  Business is essential.  Without business, they go broke, and that is definitely bad for golf.  The "dress code decisions" are definitely not made for the purpose of improving the state of golf as a whole, but if the health of individual golf courses and clubs is improved, the game of golf is improved.  More and healthier golf courses and clubs means, at least to me, more players using and supporting those clubs and courses, and a healthier game overall.

The question then changes, to "Are dress codes good for this specific golf course?".  The answer there probably does vary, in at least a few cases the dress code decisions could limit business.  In my neck of the woods, there are lots of options, from lower-cost courses run by local towns and park services, to extremely high end private clubs.  From what I've seen, there are places to play in jeans and t-shirts, and there are places with very strict dress codes.  Really, there's something for everyone.  And I believe that's healthy.  

[David in FL]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

These decisions are NEVER made for the purpose of harming the business.  

I'll go one step further.  They are ALWAYS made because the course believes that overall, it benefits business.