Wierd Rules Question

[telrod11]

OK, messing around playing skins with a guy from work, and we
are on 17 with two skins on the line. I am 6" from the hole (would have to stand in his line to finish) , and he is 4' with a sidehill downhill lie. We both lie 4. I ask him if mine is good- he answers no. I ask him if he wants me to finish- he says no. (Note: I'm not in his line). I ask him if he wants me to
mark- he says no. I ask again, are you sure - he says no.
Most of you see where this is going - he deliberately aims his putt at
my ball, and hits it 10' away. He says I can replace it, but I get a
2 stroke penalty, and he claims the hole.

Gotta be something here, but for the life of me, all I can think of is
that I got suckered, and it WAS my responsibility to mark, no matter
what he said.

Thoughts?

[Jorgen]

I'm no expert, but I've been told that when you're on the green it is your own responsibility to mark your ball.

[dave s]

I'm not a rules expert, but it appears you may be able to provide more info to help those who are best answer your question.

1) Did both of you approach the green and discover that you were 6" and your opponent 4 feet?

2) did you chip to there AFTER your opponent was established at 4 feet?

3) Did you PUTT to 6" after your opponent was established at 4 feet?

I realize that etiquette and rules indicate the player furthest from the hole is next to play. But why then, do professionals finish the hole immediate when missing a putt by inches when other players are further away and MARKED.

Also, it is my understanding that according to the rules, you are allowed to mark your ball anywhere on the green and the decision on whether or not to mark is yours and are free to do so without consulting your opponent.

One more thing: There used to be a "stymie" rule on the books, but it may have been rewritten or elimated from the rules within the past 10 years or so?

Like I said, I'm not a rules expert, but it appears your opponent may have been setting you up for a stymie in an effort to win the hole.

In any event, this should be interesting!

dave

[dave s]

Here is some info on Stymie, which I think your opponent was trying to employ:



The "stymie" is an archaic part of the game that required quite a bit of inventiveness (and probably invective) on the greens.
In singles match play, back in the day, if an opponent's ball was in the way of your ball, but more than six inches away from your ball, it was not lifted. You were just out of luck. Your options would be to slice or draw your putt around the ball in the way, or chip or pop your ball up over the offending ball.

If the opponent's ball was in your ball's way, but the balls were within six inches of each other, then the offending ball was lifted.

If your ball struck your opponent's ball, your ball would be played as it lie. But your opponent would have the option of putting his ball from its new position, or replacing it at its previous position. And if your ball knocked your opponent's ball into the cup, your opponent was considered to have holed out.

You can still occasionally catch footage of players dealing with stymies in broadcasts of pre-1952 match play matches, such as the PGA Championship.

Beginning in 1952, stymies were eliminated from the Rules of Golf.



The USGA modifies the stymie rule so that a ball may be lifted if it is within six inches of another golfer's ball and within six inches of the hole. The ball is to be replaced after the other golfer plays. Otherwise, stymies remain in effect.

dave

[klaymon]

This is all I could find. Since you were playing skins, that sounds like it would fall under match play (concerning the second rule quoted). So, you would replace your ball at its original position (6" away) and he would play as it lies with no penalty on either side.


18-5. By Another Ball

If a ball in play and at rest is moved by another ball in motion after a stroke, the moved ball must be replaced.


19-5. By Another Ball

a. At Rest

If a player's ball in motion after a stroke is deflected or stopped by a ball in play and at rest, the player must play his ball as it lies. In match play, there is no penalty. In stroke play, there is no penalty, unless both balls lay on the putting green prior to the stroke, in which case the player incurs a penalty of two strokes.

[Surefire]

Again I'm not an expert, but my knowledge of the rules was that when playing from the putting green the person who hit the ball and deflected his opponents stationary ball is the one that gets penalized.

The ball that was deflected is then replaced where it was with no penalty.

If he thought he might hit your ball, he can ask you to play or mark.

I'd double check this, and then go ask him for some money!

[sonicblue]

You shouldn't have asked him about marking your ball. That's your responsbility, not his decision. As such, rightfully so, you incur the penalty for not doing so.

However, I wouldn't play with that guy again....

[iacas]

I'm not a rules expert, but it appears you may be able to provide more info to help those who are best answer your question.

None of the questions you asked are relevant.

I realize that etiquette and rules indicate the player furthest from the hole is next to play. But why then, do professionals finish the hole immediate when missing a putt by inches when other players are further away and MARKED.

Courtesy and to speed up play. You cannot be penalized in stroke play for playing out of turn (unless it's to "gain a severe advantage" or something like that).

Also, it is my understanding that according to the rules, you are allowed to mark your ball anywhere on the green and the decision on whether or not to mark is yours and are free to do so without consulting your opponent.

Yes. He cannot request that you leave the ball there.

One more thing: There used to be a "stymie" rule on the books, but it may have been rewritten or elimated from the rules within the past 10 years or so?

It was removed in 1952, IIRC.

To answer the OP, rule 22 is pretty clear:

Source: Rule 22 22-1. Ball Assisting Play Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may: a. Lift the ball if it is his ball, or b. Have any other ball lifted. A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21). In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball. In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified. 22-2. Ball Interfering with Play Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that another ball might interfere with his play, he may have it lifted. A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21). In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball. Note: Except on the putting green, a player may not lift his ball solely because he considers that it might interfere with the play of another player. If a player lifts his ball without being asked to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke for a breach of Rule 18-2a, but there is no additional penalty under Rule 22.

Also, Rule 19-5:

Source: 19-5. Ball Deflected or Stopped By Another Ball a. At Rest If a player's ball in motion after a stroke is deflected or stopped by a ball in play and at rest, the player must play his ball as it lies. In match play, there is no penalty. In stroke play, there is no penalty, unless both balls lay on the putting green prior to the stroke, in which case the player incurs a penalty of two strokes.

In other words, the guy you were playing gets the two-stroke penalty, not you. Furthermore, he couldn't have prevented you from marking your own ball to begin with.

[Surefire]

This is all I could find. Since you were playing skins, that sounds like it would fall under match play (concerning the second rule quoted). So, you would replace your ball at its original position (6" away) and he would play as it lies with no penalty on either side.

I was thinking of stroke play. I guess skins is counted as match play, so you are right, there is no penalty.

[sonicblue]

Again I'm not an expert, but my knowledge of the rules was that when playing from the putting green the person who hit the ball and deflected his opponents stationary ball is the one that gets penalized.

If guy #1 hits an approach to the green, then guy #2 hits his approach, which hits #1's ball, there is no penalty. #2 balls stays where it ends up, #1 ball is put back to where it was before it was struck. However, if #1 had a reasonable opportunity to mark his ball (e.g., say these two shots were actually chip shots from greenside), it is his responsibility to do so. In that case, if he doesn't, it's his own fault, and the penalty is his.

In this case, though, #2 was very unethical, in actually telling #1 not to, and then aiming for the ball.

[iacas]

You shouldn't have asked him about marking your ball. That's your responsbility, not his decision. As such, rightfully so, you incur the penalty for not doing so.

However, if #1 had a reasonable opportunity to mark his ball (e.g., say these two shots were actually chip shots from greenside), it is his responsibility to do so. In that case, if he doesn't, it's his own fault, and the penalty is his.

Absolutely wrong. It's his

right to mark his ball on the green, but he isn't required to do so unless asked by his opponent. Most people, to avoid having to force their opponent to ask, simply mark when they get close to the hole or are anywhere near an opponent's line. If his opponent asked him to and he refused, that's a different matter altogether. But that's not the case here. Oh, and a skins game is medal play, not match play.

[iacas]

To summarize:

1) The opponent is penalized two strokes for hitting another ball on the putting green.
2) The OP could have marked his ball regardless of the opponent's thoughts on the matter.
3) Skins games are ruled as medal play (you can't have a "match" against three or 23 other people).

[Surefire]

If guy #1 hits an approach to the green, then guy #2 hits his approach, which hits #1's ball, there is no penalty. #2 balls stays where it ends up, #1 ball is put back to where it was before it was struck. However, if #1 had a reasonable opportunity to mark his ball (e.g., say these two shots were actually chip shots from greenside), it is his responsibility to do so. In that case, if he doesn't, it's his own fault, and the penalty is his.

I don't think any of these make a difference. The player that hits the ball is the person that potentially may be penalized(If both balls are on the putting green), not the player whose ball was hit.

The rule only differentiates between being on the green or not. There is no mention of 'reasonable opportunity'.

[Fourputt]

OK, messing around playing skins with a guy from work, and we

He is full of it. Period. He incurs the 2 stroke penalty under Rule 19-5c:

a. At Rest If a player's ball in motion after a stroke is deflected or stopped by a ball in play and at rest, the player must play his ball as it lies. In match play, there is no penalty. In stroke play, there is no penalty, unless both balls lay on the putting green prior to the stroke, in which case the player incurs a penalty of two strokes.

In any case your ball gets replaced and you incur no penalty. Also, when your ball lies on the putting green, you don't need his permission to mark and lift your ball, you also don't need his permission to tap in the 6" putt. Skins is a stroke play format, so you are allowed to play your ball even if he is away. In the situation as described, if he wanted your ball left in place to assist his play, then he was also in breach of Rule 22. If you left it there deliberately for that reason then you are also in breach, but as this played out it wasn't to assist him so much as to mess with you.

If you are going to play for money, then I'd advise you to learn something about the rules. This is a pretty simple and basic situation.... You ALWAYS have the right to mark and lift if your ball lies on the green, and you do NOT need anyone's permission to do so. If his ball also lies on the green and he plays his stroke without allowing you to mark, then his ball subsequently hits yours, he is always at fault.

[Fat Slice]

I bet that even when presented with the rules, this cad will not pay up.

[FortAsel]

It's your fault. Once you are on the green you have to mark your ball.

Look at the guys this year at the wgc accenture match play champioship (or any other regular tournament). THE FIRST THING THEY DO ONCE THEY GET UP TO THE GREEN IS GO AHEAD AND MARK THEIR BALLS.

[Q.Q.Quillume]

It's your fault. Once you are on the green you have to mark your ball...

Actually that's not correct.

* First the penalty is on the other guy, the one whose ball struck the ball sitting 6" from the hole. This has already been pointed out by at least three other posters. * There is no requirement for a player to mark his/her ball unless requested to do so by another player.

[Fourputt]

It's your fault. Once you are on the green you have to mark your ball.

That's because it's just a good practice, not because it's required. You are never required to lift your ball unless asked, but on the putting green it is generally accepted that you just do so if there is any chance of your ball bothering another player, either physically or mentally. It's always natural for me, as it is for most of the people I play with. But it doesn't seem to be as automatic for less experienced players. I've played with people who don't even carry anything to mark with.... not even so much as a penny.