20+ handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

[grantc79]

My clubhead speed with a driver is 110 mph (+/- 2 mph, usually). My ball speed (measured several times a year on a Vector) is in the low 160s. Carry is maybe 265. Total distance = 275ish. And I have fairly good launch/spin numbers too. 300 yds? Not a chance, unless I've got a nice breeze. What's my max swing speed? I've got no clue. Not sure it really matters.

Ya my swing speed is normally +/- about 108 last I checked and my longest straight, non wind assisted drive so far is 294 which I hit today tyvm.

Every time I really catch one I'm left not only in awe of what I've done but also in awe of someone like Bubba Watson or JB Holmes.

[darthfader]

Ya my swing speed is normally +/- about 108 last I checked and my longest straight, non wind assisted drive so far is 294 which I hit today tyvm.

294 = pretty damn good, IMO. I don't recall my longest drive this year... but here's a rundown of my drives at the TPC Sawgrass Stadium course, where I played an 18-hole tournament a few weeks ago:

#1. Driver (right-center fairway) 275 #2. Driver (left-center fairway) pulled, maybe 280 #4. 4-wood (left-center fairway) 245 (elevated tee) #5. Driver killed, through the fairway, maybe 285 #6. Driver (little heel, center fairway) 265 #7. Driver in the woods #9. Driver (right-center fairway) 275 #10. 4-wood (center fairway) killed (!!), 250 #11. Driver (little heel push, right-center fairway) maybe 265 #12. ugly hooked hybrid, maybe 220 #14. Driver, two balls left into the lake (sigh...) #15. Driver (right-center fairway) 280 #16. Driver (pulled slightly into left rough, near treeline) 270 #17. 9-iron to 12 feet = birdie (only putt I made all day, got the whole thing on video) #18. Driver, ball landed dry then hopped in for a swim. ?? So what's that average? Maybe 275ish? Geez.. I must be a complete pansy. Last summer, towards the end of one round, I hit two bombs on consecutive holes that due to the hard fairways, downslope and a light breeze... both finished at around 340 yds. Nothing was different with me or the swing... they probably just flew an extra 10 yards from the wind, then landed on the right slope and ran out like crazy. (Not fun, considering I hit into the group ahead TWICE. They weren't happy.) Maybe I should keep a running total of my "all-time top 10 longest shots" with the driver, average those up, then add 20 yards.... then just call me Bubba. Bubba, JB... they are talented, have good technique, and swing really hard. They should hit it long. Anthony Kim gripping down to 42", he's like 5' 9", swinging an Ozik X-flex, and still averaging over 300.... that's crazy. What impresses me most about those guys is how far they hit their "safe" club (3-wood, 2-iron, hybrid, whatever) 260, 270, 280?? Yikes. And I agree with the idea that where driver distances are concerned... the rangefinder/GPS devices have been very... educational. Sometimes I hit one pretty hard, but the GPS only says 270. Can't argue with the facts. (Well, I guess some people can.)

[dmband8985]

seriously, i think your rant is ridiculous...there is more to the game than how far you can drive. have you seen those long drive competitions, i'm pretty sure very few of them are scratch golfers. never underestimate the intimidation of the short game....sure you can boom the ball off the tee but what good is that if you can't land it where you want. lot of courses and holes where you have to strategically place every shot just to be able to get to a place on the green from where you can two putt. say you get to within 50-60 yards of the green and the pin is on a plateau on the back of the green...that is a remarkably tough shot that requires a completely different set of skills than hitting driver 300 yards. plus never underestimate the psychological intimidation the flat stick has on most golfers. There is a saying that 95% of putting is between the ears. even if you hit a fair share of GIRs, three putts will put a dent in your score card.

to sum up it is not ridiculous for a 20 handicapper to hit the ball 300 yards. to be a good golfer you need to possess a wide variety of skills, only one of which is hitting the ball a far way. its like being a wide receiver in football. if you are fast, you have potential, but if you can't run a route or have butter hands you're just a fast runner.

[grantc79]

say you get to within 50-60 yards of the green and the pin is on a plateau on the back of the green...that is a remarkably tough shot that requires a completely different set of skills than hitting driver 300 yards.

Not really.

Hitting a ball 300 yards requires generally (for a rightie): A flat left wrist, a bent right wrist, club head lag, 110mph+ swing speed, with a club head that stays more or less on plane. Hitting a 60 yard approach shot requires generally: A flat left wrist, a bent right wrist, club head lag, with a club head that stays more or less on plane with a little touch added in there. There isn't a whole lot of difference there, especially if you play it safe and don't hit at every flag. So basically what you are trying to tell me is that they can get all those fundamentals right with 110+ mph swing speed a 46 inch long club but can't pull it off with a softer swing and a 35 inch long wedge?

plus never underestimate the psychological intimidation the flat stick has on most golfers. There is a saying that 95% of putting is between the ears. even if you hit a fair share of GIRs, three putts will put a dent in your score card.

In order to be a monster with some accuracy off the tee box and keep a 20 handicap you'll need to miss practically every green and average 2.75 or so putts per hole (do the math that's pretty close).

That's a tall order.

to sum up it is not ridiculous for a 20 handicapper to hit the ball 300 yards. to be a good golfer you need to possess a wide variety of skills, only one of which is hitting the ball a far way. its like being a wide receiver in football. if you are fast, you have potential, but if you can't run a route or have butter hands you're just a fast runner.

That analogy isn't really apples to apples since pretty much every teacher I've ever met has said the same thing which is that 90% of a golf swing can be learned from chipping. So basically in order to hit a monster 300 yard drive you have to know how to chip because its the same basic motion.

The more appropriate analogy is to say that that Michael Johnson or Carl Lewis are great at running the 100 meters but are horrible in the 40 yard dash and frankly I don't see how thats possible. Now they might not be as good at it, but generally just being a great runner you will at least be OK at both.

[Fat Slice]

(Originally Posted by darthfader) My clubhead speed with a driver is 110 mph (+/- 2 mph, usually). My ball speed (measured several times a year on a Vector) is in the low 160s. Carry is maybe 265. Total distance = 275ish.

With a draw on a harder, flat fairway, isn't it likely to have more than 10 yards of roll in that instance?

[Chas]

Indeed, there's always the issue of fairway hardness, which will affect roll enormously of course. I'm not a long driver by any means, but when I hit one 280 recently (verified by my partner's GPS and my Pinseeker), the ball kicked up a small cloud of dust and just kept on rolling, and I'm talking ON THE FLAT. I don't know how one can judge "carry" without someone standing out there marking the landing spot, but I suppose the ball prolly carried 250-260.

I played on a course in Kampala (Uganda) in the summer once (early 70s). The fairways were like concrete, it was amazing how far the ball bounced and rolled. Actually they were mostly dried red clay - hardly any grass at all. The hardest part was avoiding bouncing the ball clear through the greens (and well beyond), which were something fierce on the Stimp! The first few holes I was going back and forth behind and in front of the green like a yo-yo!! In the end I learned to pitch them about 40 yards in front of the green and hoped they stopped somewhere near.

My caddy, a native Ugandan, thought the whole thing was hilarious. Which it must have been from his point of view.

[Petden]

Talk about concrete, my longest drive came from the most beautiful muff-up. This shot was so long its undescribable. I bombed one about 270-280, and it landed on a concrete bridge, the kick from the bridge was rediculous, I thought another person ran to my ball and hit it mid air. That one must have run, and I mean sprint for at least another 60 yards. I was within 100 yards on a 438yard par 4, when it finally stopped. If I had a range finder I would have liked to find the exact distance of that ball.

[dmband8985]

Not really.

i still don't see how you don't think its possible to be 20 shots off par and be able to drive 300 yards. sure aspects of swinging your driver and your wedge are the same, but i don't see see how being good at one necessarily means you have to be good at the other. you go to any practice range in this country and even the best golfers will tell you they can't hit every club in their bag well...usually they feel comfortable with short irons, are less consistent with long irons, and they are afraid of what they will do with their driver...it's not inconceivable to imagine that there are people out that who just hit their driver better than the other clubs in their bag. again, i bring up the case of professional long drivers...according to your logic seniors on the long drive tour who can hit the ball 350 at times should be competing with Tiger and Phil for Green Jackets.

and again i have to mention the mental aspect to it. when you are on the tee box holding your driver, you are hoping to land your ball in a much bigger area, lets say an imaginary box on the fairway that is 10 yards wide and 20 yards long plus about a few yards on either side of the fairway where you wouldn't really mind ending up...thats a landing zone of approximately 200 sq yds or more...it's really easy to feel comfortable hitting the bejeezus out of the ball knowing you have a decent margin for error (you wouldn't necessarily think this way but a 20 handicapper would). conversely, for the 50-60 yard approach, you're looking at a landing zone, you may need to land the ball in a 20-25 sq ft area and have it stop on a dime...much much much tougher shot than the drive of the tee is it not? plus i don't know what kind of courses you play, but a lot of the ones that i do really require you to set up your approach to the green in order to have a chance to two putt (plateaus steep drop offs, ridges, valleys etc). you can play it safe and just get it on the putting surface, but from a lot of positions on the green three and four putts are very much in play. one more thing....you need to properly understand what 20 strokes over par is....its just slightly over bogey golf...these are people with general skills of the game, but not a complete game. on average they play about a stroke over what really really good players do on any given hole. this stroke could come from a three putt, over/under shooting an approach, chunking a bunker shot, and errant tee shot that land out of bounds or finds the drink and you have to take a stroke. i really think your rant would have held more traction if it was against 30 handicaps who drive the ball 300 yards, it's a bit more difficult to believe then.

[grantc79]

i still don't see how you don't think its possible to be 20 shots off par and be able to drive 300 yards. sure aspects of swinging your driver and your wedge are the same, but i don't see see how being good at one necessarily means you have to be good at the other.

I have no doubt that someone who has developed enough skill to hit 300 yard drives on a regular basis can shoot a round of 20 over par.

All it takes is one horrible hole with an 8 or a 9 or a string of doubles and 20 over par is definitely a possibility. What I believe is unreasonable is that has that good of a swing can be CONSISTENTLY 20+ over par.

it's not inconceivable to imagine that there are people out that who just hit their driver better than the other clubs in their bag. again, i bring up the case of professional long drivers...according to your logic seniors on the long drive tour who can hit the ball 350 at times should be competing with Tiger and Phil for Green Jackets.

I have met a few of those crazy long drive guys through my coach. My coach was actually a long drive guy back in the day. They all hit the ball a mile off the tee and some are fairly erratic at times but they can all knock the crap out of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, PW, etc too and they are a lot more accurate with that than they are their drivers.

It is simply a matter of technique. The same exact skills and techniques are used for a driver and a wedge the only difference is the wedge is fantastically easier to hit. The same skills are used to shoot a 3 pointer as a free throw. I coach basketball and I have yet to meet a person who shoots better from the 3 point line than they do from the free throw line. It just doesn't make sense. A whole lot of those guys can't putt for shit though I'll give you that, but they can all break 85 on their worst days just due to the fact that they can just hit 3 woods and hybrids all day as long as others hit their driver.

conversely, for the 50-60 yard approach, you're looking at a landing zone, you may need to land the ball in a 20-25 sq ft area and have it stop on a dime...much much much tougher shot than the drive of the tee is it not?

If you have good enough technique to hit a 300 yard drive straight then hitting a 50 yard ball straight isn't an issue. The only issue then becomes can you land the ball in the 25 yards between the front edge and back edge of a green and that's honestly not that hard either.

Now if you try to hunt a flag thats 2 yards from the front edge or back edge then yes you might miss but that still shouldn't be that big of a deal. I can miss every single one and still not be 20 over par. I'll put it to you another way........ According to this site it appears that of all male golfers who keep a handicap than 15 is the national average. http://www.eyespygolf.com/CMSContentPage.aspx?nodeId=32 Now according to this next article the average driving distance of double digit handicap golfers is 205. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...4/ai_101967369 So what you are telling me is there is someone who is 5 strokes above the national average in handicap that hits the ball 100 yards further than everyone else from the tee box. That simply doesn't make sense. Furthermore, the argument that random bad golfers can knock a drive out there 300 yards in neutral conditions is also asinine. It takes a lot of fine tuning of a swing to hit the ball 275, there are tour players that don't hit the ball that fair consistently. Much like a scoring average it takes awhile to start moving that number and so I'd be no less shocked by a 20 handicapper shooting a 68 than a 20 handicapper hitting one 300 in "normal" conditions. It just doesn't happen.

[Chas]

According to this site it appears that of all male golfers who keep a handicap than 15 is the national average.

That I can believe.

Now according to this next article the average driving distance of double digit handicap golfers is 205.

That I find very hard to believe, unless I am misinterpreting something. I was averaging well over 205 yards (more like 220-230) when I was still shooting 3-digit rounds (perish the memory ......). Admittedly I was spraying drives all over the place, but we're talking pure distance here, not accuracy. I believe that, in your post, you are seriously underestimating the driving distance of many high-scoring golfers.

Look, we all know that for many hackers the feeling of really connecting with one every so often is what brings them back to the track. For a while at least. Until they realize their blasted score is still up in the stratosphere and they'd better start thinking about wedges and putters and such. And actually hitting the fairway for a nice change.

[dmband8985]

do yourself a favor, set out twenty balls the next time you go to a range...hit ten with your driver trying to hit it in a zone 250-270 yards out and about 10 yards wide. then hit 10 with a 60 deg or whatever you prefer trying to land it in a small confined area...my range has a big rectangular shaped target thats about 5 ft by 5ft and is about 55-60 yards out. come back to me with your accuracy...gauranteed that even though you think its harder to hit your driver, you'll get more in your target area with it. i think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but all aspects of the short game are much harder than driving the ball.

another aspect that i haven't brought up is the technology in drivers these days...every company is out there to give every average joe the chance to boom his drives. huge faces, ultra thin faces that are incredibly hot and have super high moi's. anyone with 400 dollars can get the ball high in the air and flying for 250...throw in a few lessons to get some basic technique and 300 isn't out of the realm of possibility.

try to remember rounds you played when you were a higher handicap and try to remember where the extra strokes came from...very few came from what you did with driver. you were almost lucky to escape a long par three with a bogey. knowing how to hit a driver far does nothing if you cant get a ball out of a bunker when your left knee is near your chest and you're stretch your right leg to the ground....or if you can't pick a ball out cleanly out of a fairway bunker on a long par four...or if there are trees in your view of the green and you can't work the ball in a given direction forcing you to take a shot and lay up, or if you can't play a low roller to get out of some trees...all i'm saying is there are alot of shots you need to be able to hit to put up a low score, all of which don't necessarily correlate to your ability to a hit a shot off the tee with the biggest most forgiving club in your bag with no obstacles in front of you.

basically a three putt every odd hole and missed green on every even hole adds up to 18 shots over par...its not that hard to do regardless of how far you drive, and its also not that hard to do both on a couple holes

[grantc79]

That I can believe.

I think what you are missing is that one that you sprayed dead left that hit a tree counts just as much as for your average as the one you hit 240.

This isn't an average of the best drives, this is an average of all drives.

[grantc79]

do yourself a favor, set out twenty balls the next time you go to a range...hit ten with your driver trying to hit it in a zone 250-270 yards out and about 10 yards wide. then hit 10 with a 60 deg or whatever you prefer trying to land it in a small confined area...my range has a big rectangular shaped target thats about 5 ft by 5ft and is about 55-60 yards out. come back to me with your accuracy...gauranteed that even though you think its harder to hit your driver, you'll get more in your target area with it. i think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but all aspects of the short game are much harder than driving the ball.

First of all, a 5 foot by 5 foot area at 60 yards is kinda bullshit. Most greens are a good 15 yards wide and 25 yards long. I think most of us will get on the green most of the time from 60 yards which means a 2 putt and you are home.

That said the range I go to here in New Orleans has a bucket at 50 yards out which I can land it on or very near almost every single time. Second of all, I understand where you are going but I would argue completely the opposite. If I make a good drive on a hole the WORST score I will post is a bogey period. If I pop one well down the middle on any par 4 or 5 regardless of length I'm thinking birdie, settling for pars, and shocked if I bogey. But you can literally look at every score card I post and if you see a high number its because I made a poor shot off the tee box almost 100% guaranteed. The very simple reason for that is because if I can manage to direct a 107 or so MPH swing speed with a 46" inch long driver then managing an iron with a 36" shaft that I'm swinging half as fast is cake. I might not knock it close everytime, but from 5/6 iron on up I'm on or very near the green everytime.

[Fourputt]

another aspect that i haven't brought up is the technology in drivers these days...every company is out there to give every average joe the chance to boom his drives. huge faces, ultra thin faces that are incredibly hot and have super high moi's. anyone with 400 dollars can get the ball high in the air and flying for 250...throw in a few lessons to get some basic technique and 300 isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Ok.... this it pure bull. I can carry the ball 250 with my good swing, but that is near the top end of my range, and even then I need help to get enough roll to stretch it to 280. And this year I've hit exactly one drive that went 300 yards. Testing with a swing speed monitor a month ago, I had to swing as hard as I can possibly swing to hit 106 mph, and yet with good solid contact that ball still didn't make 300 yards. Granted that it was a driving range ball, but I've hit the same shot on course with my Bridgestone B330s and also didn't make 300. And that here at 5500 feet above sea level.

With all that, I'm still as long as, or longer than, most of the guys I play with. Maybe you play with younger players who still have some future potential, but most of my friends are over 50, and what they have now is about as good as it's going to be. And since the highest percentage of golfers are in that age range (45+), I would say from personal experience that the average Joe does NOT have the potential to hit 300 yard drives. Nor should he even be trying. What he should be trying to do is to put the ball in play. All this long drive crap is just that.... crap. 250 in the fairway will get you handily around any golf course I've ever seen, and THAT is what the average player should be trying to accomplish.

[Chas]

do yourself a favor, set out twenty balls the next time you go to a range...hit ten with your driver trying to hit it in a zone 250-270 yards out and about 10 yards wide. then hit 10 with a 60 deg or whatever you prefer trying to land it in a small confined area...my range has a big rectangular shaped target thats about 5 ft by 5ft and is about 55-60 yards out. come back to me with your accuracy...gauranteed that even though you think its harder to hit your driver, you'll get more in your target area with it. i think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but all aspects of the short game are much harder than driving the ball.

I will try that, you've got me intrigued I must say. It's counter-intuitive to me though. Even though my driver accuracy has improved a fair bit lately with a grip change and a better swing plane (far fewer big pushes, but maybe more hooks/strong draws these days), I don't think it's anywhere near as good as that for any of the wedges, which I'm hitting with a fair bit of confidence these days (touch wood ....).

Still, I'll keep an open mind about it and maybe you're right.

[Chas]

Maybe you play with younger players who still have some future potential, but most of my friends are over 50, and what they have now is about as good as it's going to be.

Ouch! Man, you really know how to hit a guy below the belt ....

[only kidding, I can take it.]

And since the highest percentage of golfers are in that age range (45+), I would say from personal experience that the average Joe does NOT have the potential to hit 300 yard drives.

I agree with all of that. An average of 250 and in the fairway is perfectly fine for old farts like me (

), heck we aren't playing major tournaments from the back tees after all. Me, I should take 10-20 yards off if it greatly increases my % fairways hit. THAT would greatly help my handicap. But I'm greedy and want to have it all.

[dmband8985]

i'm gonna start throwing out statistics, cause i'm a science major and i like numbers....so here are some 2008 pga tour stats to show that there is not necessarily a correlation between driving distance and other aspects of the game including scoring...

The top three on the driving distance list followed by other stats:
1. bubba watson -315.1; 27th in GIR at 67.6%, 182 in putts per round (ppr) at 30.5, and 82nd in scoring
2. Robert Garrigus -311; 21st in GIR at 68%, 154th in ppr, and 97th in scoring
3. JB Holmes - 310.3; 152nd in GIR at 62.9%, 88th in ppr at 29.28, and 63rd in scoring


conversely, there are five players on tour that hit 70% or more GIR:

1. Durant - 102nd in Driving distance at 286.5
2. Allenby- 61st in DD at 291.7
3. Frazer- 14th in DD at 299
4- Huston 65th in DD at 291.6
5- Baird- 116 in DD at 285.2

only Frazier seems to have the best combination of distance and accuracy according to this list...4 of the 5 most accurate players on the tour this year were on average 25 yards behind the longest driver on tour.

so here in my final post on this subject cause i'm kind of over it at this point...does driving the ball a long way make it easier to score lower? yes...does driving the ball a far way necessarily mean you are going to score lower? no. these stats were from people who play golf for a living and practice every day sometimes two time a day to hone their skills. a 20 handicap plays maybe once or twice a month, they are bound to be more erratic on the shots that require the most precision (short game and putts) than they are with shots with a larger margin for error. that is why people who can hit the ball a long way off the tee can still put up huge numbers. if you're still not convinced i've got one name for you...john daly

[grantc79]

they are bound to be more erratic on the shots that require the most precision (short game and putts) than they are with shots with a larger margin for error. that is why people who can hit the ball a long way off the tee can still put up huge numbers.

Once again we aren't comparing apples to apples.

An amateur hitting the ball 300 is 95 yards further than the average which is 205. Bubba Watson hitting the ball 315 is only 20 yards further than Ernie Els which 66th on tour in driving range and is about 1.5 clubs in length difference. To a pro hitting a firm 9 iron into a green rather than a soft PW isn't much different. To an amateur hitting a 3 iron into a green rather than a PW is quite a bit of difference. If you put me 70 yards out I'm comfortable with my lob wedge and I'll be on the green hunting the flag. If you put me 100 yards out I'm comfortable with my sand wedge and I'll also be hunting the flag. If you put me 130 yards out I'm comfortable with a pitching wedge and I'll be playing relatively safe. If you put me 170 out though I'm pulling a 6 iron and I'm happy just to be on the green.

if you're still not convinced i've got one name for you...john daly

He is a great case of a person with a million dollar swing and a 5 cent head.

His issues are more often involve a felony rather than a poor approach shot.