Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[MOODY]

Tiger had a doctor who was implicated with PED'S.  Tiger gained a ton of muscle after he went pro, granted that happens as you mature but after he started to have health issues.

Knee problems, back problems was it connective tissue related?  I bet so and that is one thing PED's do not grow only muscle.  I don't know for sure and probably the only one who does is Tiger but it looked suspicious to me.  Doesn't matter though, Jack still would have beat him more times than not in both their primes.

LOL and yes they did play against the wind and all up hill back then.  Course conditions have improved night and day along with the equipment since then.  Watch some old video of the old guys and some of the fairways look like light ruff now days.  

I really don't know who is the greatest but man, what kind of ticket price and pay per view would that generate if you could time travel those two together and play.  Awesome.

 

[skydog]

40 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

When you can prove that he took PEDs, I'll accept that as an argument. Meanwhile, in an age where literally everyone who has ever taken a steroid has been exposed and ridiculed, Tiger never has been. Why do you think that is?

You think the most popular golfer on the face of the planet, who lost near billions in endorsement deals after an infidelity scandal, and who had his life torn apart under scrutiny, over and over again, somehow hid that he was taking PEDs? 

This is a bit of stretch...

I honestly have no real opinion one way or the other on this topic as it relates to Tiger, but I don't think its realistic to think that all or even a simple majority of pro athletes who doped have been revealed. 

[jbishop15]

1 hour ago, MOODY said:

Tiger had a doctor who was implicated with PED'S.  Tiger gained a ton of muscle after he went pro, granted that happens as you mature but after he started to have health issues.

Knee problems, back problems was it connective tissue related?  I bet so and that is one thing PED's do not grow only muscle.  I don't know for sure and probably the only one who does is Tiger but it looked suspicious to me.  Doesn't matter though, Jack still would have beat him more times than not in both their primes.

LOL and yes they did play against the wind and all up hill back then.  Course conditions have improved night and day along with the equipment since then.  Watch some old video of the old guys and some of the fairways look like light ruff now days.  

I really don't know who is the greatest but man, what kind of ticket price and pay per view would that generate if you could time travel those two together and play.  Awesome.

 

And, yet, that doctor admitted that other patients of his used steroids (including megastar Alex Rodriguez). Why not Tiger? What does he have to gain by not admitting Tiger took PEDs. 

The 'Tiger put on a ton of muscle' thing has been repeatedly discussed and dismissed in this thread. To make a very long story short: he didn't put on that much muscle and he likes to wear tighter shirts. Having seen Tiger play in person in 2011, when he was still a workout maniac, he wasn't that big or muscular. 

1 hour ago, skydog said:

This is a bit of stretch...

I honestly have no real opinion one way or the other on this topic as it relates to Tiger, but I don't think its realistic to think that all or even a simple majority of pro athletes who doped have been revealed. 

All the stars have been. A-Rod, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire; all under constant spotlight, all exposed. Tiger is more famous than any of them combined, and none of his instructors or doctors have ever said a thing about him using PEDs. Ever.

Plus, think about the people who dislike Tiger: 

Steve Wilson, who famously had a falling out, could've. Jesper Parnevik, who introduced Tiger to Elin and plays on the PGA Tour and has said on record how much he despise Tiger, has never even insinuated that he took PEDs. And, again, the doctor who got caught giving PEDs to other patients (and who gave them up under police scrutiny) said Tiger never took any. 

The National Enquirer, who followed him around to document his infidelity, never once came across anything about PEDs. That's pretty remarkable.

It seems unlike to me that Tiger, who was notoriously unfriendly with the media, was kind of an arrogant douchebag at times, along with the added pressure of being African-American in a predominantly white sport, managed to hide something as massive as PEDs, especially when everyone was looking. 

[Dufferpauly]

I do...he is a very defective person, having been raised by a maniac...the sex addiction is just the tip of the iceberg 

[MuniGrit]

36 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

And, yet, that doctor admitted that other patients of his used steroids (including megastar Alex Rodriguez). Why not Tiger? What does he have to gain by not admitting Tiger took PEDs. 

The 'Tiger put on a ton of muscle' thing has been repeatedly discussed and dismissed in this thread. To make a very long story short: he didn't put on that much muscle and he likes to wear tighter shirts. Having seen Tiger play in person in 2011, when he was still a workout maniac, he wasn't that big or muscular. 

All the stars have been. A-Rod, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire; all under constant spotlight, all exposed. Tiger is more famous than any of them combined, and none of his instructors or doctors have ever said a thing about him using PEDs. Ever.

Plus, think about the people who dislike Tiger: 

Steve Wilson, who famously had a falling out, could've. Jesper Parnevik, who introduced Tiger to Elin and plays on the PGA Tour and has said on record how much he despise Tiger, has never even insinuated that he took PEDs. And, again, the doctor who got caught giving PEDs to other patients (and who gave them up under police scrutiny) said Tiger never took any. 

The National Enquirer, who followed him around to document his infidelity, never once came across anything about PEDs. That's pretty remarkable.

It seems unlike to me that Tiger, who was notoriously unfriendly with the media, was kind of an arrogant douchebag at times, along with the added pressure of being African-American in a predominantly white sport, managed to hide something as massive as PEDs, especially when everyone was looking. 

Especially with all the pre tests the PGA Tour subjected the players to during Tigers dominance..........

[jbishop15]

2 minutes ago, Dufferpauly said:

I do...he is a very defective person, having been raised by a maniac...the sex addiction is just the tip of the iceberg 

okay guy 

[Dufferpauly]

Tiger apologists are very amusing

[iacas]

2 hours ago, MOODY said:

Tiger had a doctor who was implicated with PED'S.

Thousands of other people were treated by that same doctor. That's a weak link at best.

2 hours ago, MOODY said:

Tiger gained a ton of muscle after he went pro, granted that happens as you mature but after he started to have health issues.

As do most young men who turn 20 to 25 and who work out like a fiend.

Also, if you've ever seen him in person, he looked nowhere near as ripped as he would look on TV. He looked fit, he didn't look "ripped."

Furthermore, his head size didn't ever really increase like Barry Bonds, etc.

2 hours ago, MOODY said:

Knee problems, back problems was it connective tissue related?

Jason Day has back problems. Rory. Dustin. The list is actually quite long, because the modern PGA Tour pro has been training hard for 15+ years by the first time they get their PGA Tour card.

Tiger had a knee problem back in his college days. He'd snap the knee. Etc.

Nicklaus had back problems, hip problems, knee problems. Later in life, sure, but are those signs of his PED usage? He probably didn't practice half as much as Tiger had at similar ages.

2 hours ago, MOODY said:

Doesn't matter though, Jack still would have beat him more times than not in both their primes.

I'd bet the other way, easily.

Tiger dominated significantly stronger, deeper fields by significantly more than Jack ever dominated. Jack, really, didn't "dominate." He was a little bit better than significantly weaker, shallower fields.

65-35 would be my call. Tiger 2000 is likely the best golf that's ever been played to date for an extended period of time.

2 hours ago, MOODY said:

Course conditions have improved night and day along with the equipment since then.

Improved equipment helped narrow the gap between Tiger and the other players. Tiger wishes the PGA Tour still played a balata ball, muscleback irons, small driver heads… etc. He was at his best before PGA Tour pros got forgiving irons, hybrids, the solid ball, etc.

Jack agrees - improved equipment makes it easier for the second tier pros to narrow the gap.

56 minutes ago, Dufferpauly said:

Tiger apologists are very amusing

So are Tiger bashers.

What's "apologist" to say "there's never been any evidence to Tiger using PEDs"? That's a fact.

An "apologist" would say "Well, everyone else was doing it" or "He had to take them to stay competitive" or something like that after he was nailed for taking them.

Tiger "apologists" don't need to apologize for anything.

[Dufferpauly]

Spoken like a true apologist...Woods has done damage to the game...at his heyday his followers clogged up courses with people who never played, and have since quit...all the idiots yelling nonsense at all these pros is his doing too...he played at his top against some of the weakest and dullest fields ever

[MOODY]

Like I said, I do not know.  If I was a gambling man my money is on PED's.  Just my opinion.  Tiger was a once in the lifetime player and I was lucky enough to see both Jack, towards the end, and Tiger.

Both could beat me with just a 9 iron.

 

 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Dufferpauly said:

Spoken like a true apologist...

Bull. I didn't apologize for anything.

8 minutes ago, Dufferpauly said:

Woods has done damage to the game...

Yeah… okay. Good luck selling that one, buddy.

Tiger was, for quite awhile, the most recognizable person in the world. He's still the only true needle-mover in the game.

8 minutes ago, Dufferpauly said:

at his heyday his followers clogged up courses with people who never played, and have since quit...

Uhhh, okay? Huh?

8 minutes ago, Dufferpauly said:

all the idiots yelling nonsense at all these pros is his doing too..

Revisionist history at best. They were yelling it at the 1991 PGA with John Daly.

8 minutes ago, Dufferpauly said:

he played at his top against some of the weakest and dullest fields ever

He played against significantly stronger and deeper fields than Jack Nicklaus.

But hey, don't let me stop your flow of hate, @Dufferpauly. Keep on keepin' on man.

[jbishop15]

13 minutes ago, Dufferpauly said:

Spoken like a true apologist...Woods has done damage to the game...at his heyday his followers clogged up courses with people who never played, and have since quit...all the idiots yelling nonsense at all these pros is his doing too...he played at his top against some of the weakest and dullest fields ever

As a forum leader, I would like to wish you a good night, and hope that you have a great Monday, too.

[Dufferpauly]

Same to you, thank you

[boogielicious]

13 hours ago, Dufferpauly said:

Tiger apologists are very amusing

So are Tiger haters. 

[MuniGrit]

Bottom line is nobody knows if he took PED or not. You can argue either way with a good case buts it's just an assumption.

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, MuniGrit said:

Bottom line is nobody knows if he took PED or not. You can argue either way with a good case buts it's just an assumption.

That implies that it's relatively close.

There's literally no actual evidence to support the idea that he took PEDs. The only thing supporting that idea more than pure speculation is that Galea was linked to PEDs with other people. As were thousands of others.

That's it. That's the only thing that even rises above completely dismissible.

[sheepdog]

On 2/24/2018 at 11:34 PM, Vinsk said:

Nah. Says nothing really. Jack as usual played a nice solid round while the top of the leaderboard crumbled. The fact that he was in his 40’s was impressive but he basically won similar to how Willet won. 

Yeah that's why everyone is still talking about it 32 years later, It was a nice solid round.

I bet if Tiger is down by 4 at the turn on Sunday he'd take a nice solid back nine like Jack had that day.

Of course the media would hail it as the greatest back nine since Bobby Jones was a kid.

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by sheepdog

[turtleback]

5 hours ago, MuniGrit said:

Bottom line is nobody knows if he took PED or not. You can argue either way with a good case buts it's just an assumption.

No one knows whether Jack took PEDs either.  

But if we get to make up anything we like . . .

I'm just trying to figure out how Tight blew away the field at the '97 Masters - long before this PED nonsense started getting peddled.