Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[boogielicious]

3 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

Against much better top 5 competition, but (ostensibly) significantly weaker fields, overall. 

This phrase contradicts itself.

[csh19792001]

1 minute ago, boogielicious said:

This phrase contradicts itself.

No, it doesn't.

Wilt Chamberlain faced more all time great Centers, and much more often, than Shaquille O'Neal. Look at how many Top Tier Hall of Famers he played 25+ games against, versus what Shaq faced.

However, Shaq probably faced better Centers, on average.  

[iacas]

No he didn’t.

Top players all benefited from weak fields.

They all had boosted stats.

When only five to ten guys are capable of winning a tournament (i.e. really high odds), win totals and top ten finish totals are super inflated.

[Double Mocha Man]

Thanks for the fun reading to go with my morning coffee. It's been the pre-Super Bowl of GOAT debates.

[turtleback]

53 minutes ago, iacas said:

No he didn’t.

Top players all benefited from weak fields.

They all had boosted stats.

When only five to ten guys are capable of winning a tournament (i.e. really high odds), win totals and top ten finish totals are super inflated.

I've been thinking that perhaps there should be a faq linking to a couple of dozen posts in the thread that we can point newbies to who come here with half-baked comments.

And new guy, the minute you start introducing top tens and second place finishes you've already lost.

As to length, Jack marvelled at the places Tiger hit the ball in the '97 Masters.  A tournament where Tiger was using the same steel-shaft, persimmon-headed clubs and wound balls that Jack played.  AndvTiger won 6 straight USGA titles as a young man using that same equipment.  The issue isn't how long Jack would have been with modern equipment, the issue is how much longer Tiger was playing the same equipment Jack did.

And while the newby admits the BO fields were weak he claims that was the only one, perhaps he should consider that for much of Jack's prime the field in the PGA Championship was made up of about 2/3rds club pros.  And that in your non-majors a sizable portion of the field was made up of club pros.  And finally, in the prime of his whole career Jack never played an event where substantially all of the top 50 players played.  While during HIS career Tiger played at least 5 events every year where substantially all of the top 100 played.  That would be the 4 majors and the Players.

And while it is far from the faq I envision, post 6829 in this thread has links to a selection of posts the newby can read to find out just how off base he is.  And it is probably a good time to mention that I lived through Jack's career and he was my golf hero.  And I still like him a lot for his golf, although in some respects his public comments make him as or more disappointing than Tiger's peccadillos.

[iacas]

Here is some more reading for you:

Jack’s Evolution: What Constitutes “Greatest of All Time”? « Persimmon Golf Today

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In an internet awash with junk, every once in a while you stumble onto gold. I wanted to document this little piece that was well researched and presented. I was surprised at how little I knew of t...

50 minutes ago, turtleback said:

I've been thinking that perhaps there should be a faq linking to a couple of dozen posts in the thread that we can point newbies to who come here with half-baked comments.

See above (in this post). I have a folder of these links. 🙂

[turtleback]

Quote

See above (in this post). I have a folder of these links. 🙂

 

Is there any way you could put the direct urls for all the links in your folder into a file and store it somewhere on the site so when someone new comes here we can refer them to it?  It is hard for a newby to read this whole thread, but by picking out some gems and making them easily accessible we can get newbies up to speed so they can see that their points have already been considered?

Edited February 6, 2021 by turtleback

[ncates00]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

As to length, Jack marvelled at the places Tiger hit the ball in the '97 Masters.  A tournament where Tiger was using the same steel-shaft, persimmon-headed clubs and wound balls that Jack played. 

I agree with your overall argument; however, this is not true. Tiger did not use a persimmon driver when he won the ‘97 Masters.

The equipment Tiger Woods used during his five Masters victories

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Looking back at the equipment Tiger Woods used to win all five of his Masters titles over the...

 

[turtleback]

4 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I agree with your overall argument; however, this is not true. Tiger did not use a persimmon driver when he won the ‘97 Masters.

The equipment Tiger Woods used during his five Masters victories

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Looking back at the equipment Tiger Woods used to win all five of his Masters titles over the...

 

Yup, you're right.  Thanks for the correction.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

 

Is there any way you could put the direct urls for all the links in your folder into a file and store it somewhere on the site so when someone new comes here we can refer them to it?  It is hard for a newby to read this whole thread, but by picking out some gems and making them easily accessible we can get newbies up to speed so they can see that their points have already been considered?

Bookmark my post above if you want. I have a folder it’s just on my computer.

[turtleback]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Bookmark my post above if you want. I have a folder it’s just on my computer.

Good idea.  I am bookmarking your post and my post with multiple links.

[Vinsk]

40 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

agree with your overall argument; however, this is not true. Tiger did not use a persimmon driver when he won the ‘97 Masters.

True...but the important point is better equipment made it harder for the better players to win. It actually narrowed the gap.

[ncates00]

54 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

True...but the important point is better equipment made it harder for the better players to win. It actually narrowed the gap.

I offer no opinion or argument on that point (you're probably right), nor did the previous poster raise that point.  I merely pointed out a flaw in the facts the poster laid out.

[csh19792001]

4 hours ago, turtleback said:

As to length, Jack marvelled at the places Tiger hit the ball in the '97 Masters.  A tournament where Tiger was using the same steel-shaft, persimmon-headed clubs and wound balls that Jack played. 

Thank you for the link! Much appreciated!

Tiger never used persimmon headed clubs at the 97' Masters. He used a King Cobra Deep Faced driver with 9 degrees loft and a True Temper steel shafted driver. In fact, he never used the type of woods that Jack used, ever, on the PGA Tour.  

He did use a Titleist Professional 90 golf ball. Wound, old, garbage ball in 97'. 

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Here is some more reading for you:

Jack’s Evolution: What Constitutes “Greatest of All Time”? « Persimmon Golf Today

---

In an internet awash with junk, every once in a while you stumble onto gold. I wanted to document this little piece that was well researched and presented. I was surprised at how little I knew of t...

See above (in this post). I have a folder of these links. 🙂

@iacas Thank you SO much!!! Incredibly appreciated!!!! I will pour over these links!!

[turtleback]

1 hour ago, csh19792001 said:

Thank you for the link! Much appreciated!

Tiger never used persimmon headed clubs at the 97' Masters. He used a King Cobra Deep Faced driver with 9 degrees loft and a True Temper steel shafted driver. In fact, he never used the type of woods that Jack used, ever, on the PGA Tour.  

@iacas

Yeah,  @ncates00  already corrected me on that and I acknowledged it.

I hope you enjoy and are edified by these posts.

[csh19792001]

54 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Yeah,  @ncates00  already corrected me on that and I acknowledged it.

I hope you enjoy and are edified by these posts.

@turtleback Thank you!! Extremely appreciated! 🙂

[csh19792001]

 

How Much Deeper Has Golf Become In The Last 25 Years? – data golf blogs

Is the depth of PGA Tour talent stronger than ever? | Reuters

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It is often said that the depth of talent on the PGA Tour has become stronger than ever, but does this apparently widespread belief stand up to statistical analysis?

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by csh19792001

[measureoffsetinnm]

@iacas That post about Jack's luck in getting handed majors by other players is interesting. I do think Tiger has benefited from that at times as well. The 2005 Masters jumps to mind.