Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[brocks]

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

:sigh:

@turtleback continues to be proven right, and my old opinion wrong, about the sheer number of people who cling to "18 > 14" as their sole determining factor.

To be fair, in replying to me, he didn't say 18>14.  He said 18>18.

[lastings]

3 hours ago, turtleback said:

That never stopped Jack from touting total number of majors, and REALLY skewing the stats, since he played in WAY more than any prior player, including majors that didn't exist when the guys he had to beat out initially were playing.  Completely skews the stats, yet to Jack it was the 'fairest' way to compare.

I'm not saying you're wrong.   And, again, I'm on the Tiger side of this discussion.  

I'm just saying, if you're going to try to come up with an arbitrary point system to compare them, lets try to make it a level playing field.  or, at the very least, if one is going to say points are skewed in favor of Jack due to plying filed strength, at least acknowledge things like Tiger getting points for a fed-ex cup that didn't exist in Jacks era.     just want to cover all bases. 

[Dr. Manhattan]

1 minute ago, lastings said:

I'm not saying you're wrong.   And, again, I'm on the Tiger side of this discussion.  

I'm just saying, if you're going to try to come up with an arbitrary point system to compare them, lets try to make it a level playing field.  or, at the very least, if one is going to say points are skewed in favor of Jack due to plying filed strength, at least acknowledge things like Tiger getting points for a fed-ex cup that didn't exist in Jacks era.     just want to cover all bases. 

 

FedEx Cup didn’t exist for 90% of Tiger’s prime years. He won 2 of the first 3 and might have won 2008 if not for the leg surgery shutdown. God knows how many he would have won between 1997-2006. 

 

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, brocks said:

To be fair, in replying to me, he didn't say 18>14.  He said 18>18.

"18 > 14" is shorthand for "major total is the only consideration."

[turtleback]

3 minutes ago, lastings said:

I'm not saying you're wrong.   And, again, I'm on the Tiger side of this discussion.  

I'm just saying, if you're going to try to come up with an arbitrary point system to compare them, lets try to make it a level playing field.  or, at the very least, if one is going to say points are skewed in favor of Jack due to plying filed strength, at least acknowledge things like Tiger getting points for a fed-ex cup that didn't exist in Jacks era.     just want to cover all bases. 

Arbitrary point systems just try to limit the thinking to the process of creating the point system - once you have your point system you don't have to think anymore.  Kind of like the 2 Player of the Year awards.  One is points and mechanical, the other is the result of the collective voted opinion of a lot of people.  One doesn't require thinking, the other does.

A point system will always be distorted because it will always reflect the biases of the ones who created it.  Jack had a point system - 1 point for every major, period.  And look at how many people have accepted that uncritically, no thinking required, with our friend @Hoganman1 just the latest in a long long line.

I preferably a more thoughtful holistic way of approaching it.  Too many things that cannot be captured in a points system are probative.  How do you reflect destroying the margin of victory records in 2 majors in a points system?  How do you reflect winning 4 majors in a row in a point system?  If someday Spieth or Rory does a clean sweep and wins all the WGCs in a single season, how does that get taken into account?

All three of those things are probative on the issue but will get ignored by a points system.  Unless the points system is being constantly re-jiggered for new circumstances.  At which point it becomes useless for historical comparisons.

[brocks]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

"18 > 14" is shorthand for "major total is the only consideration."

I understand, but he's saying Jack's 18 would be better than Tiger's 18, which is even more ridiculous.

[phillyk]

5 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Jack had a point system - 1 point for every major, period.  And look at how many people have accepted that uncritically, no thinking required, with our friend @Hoganman1 just the latest in a long long line.

I like to use all those one and out pros as examples.  With our major's only reason for greatness, Danny Willet is greater than Westwood, Stricker, Fowler, Kuchar, etc.  @Hoganman1 Those players can only become greater by winning a major? If that doesn't sound ridiculous to you, then I don't know what to say.

[Hoganman1]

You're probably right on both counts.

[turtleback]

Here is an interesting factoid.  In his career, Tiger has been in 11 playoffs against guys who were or would become major winners.  He won 10 of the 11. (overall, according to this list, 15-2 - some sources, counting events a little different, have different totals).  

http://www.espn.com/espn/wire/_/section/golfonline/id/3445908

Searched for a list of all Jack's playoffs but I couldn't find one.  But his overall playoff record was 12-10.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Here is an interesting factoid.  In his career, Tiger has been in 11 playoffs against guys who were or would become major winners.  He won 10 of the 11. (overall, according to this list, 15-2 - some sources, counting events a little different, have different totals).  

http://www.espn.com/espn/wire/_/section/golfonline/id/3445908

Am I missing one? I count 10 total. I bolded the major winner ones:

2008 U.S. Open -- def. Rocco Mediate, first playoff hole after tying 18-hole playoff, 71-71

2007 Bridgestone Invitational -- def. Stewart Cink, fourth hole.

2006 Dunlop Phoenix -- lost to Padraig Harrington, second hole.

2006 Dubai Classic -- def. Ernie Els, first hole

2006 Buick Invitational -- def. Jose Maria Olazabal and Nathan Green, second hole

2005 Dunlop Phoenix -- def. Kaname Yokoo, fourth hole

2005 American Express -- def. John Daly, second hole

2005 Masters -- def. Chris DiMarco, first hole

2002 Deutsche Bank -- def. Colin Montgomerie, third hole

2001 NEC Invitational -- def. Jim Furyk, seventh hole

2000 PGA Championship -- def. Bob May by one shot, three holes (total score)

2000 Mercedes Championships -- def. Ernie Els, second hole

1999 American Express -- def. Miguel Angel Jimenez, first hole

1998 Nissan Open -- lost to Billy Mayfair, first hole

1998 Johnnie Walker -- def. Ernie Els, second hole

1997 Mercedes Championships -- def. Tom Lehman, first hole

1996 Las Vegas Invitational -- def. Davis Love III, first hole

So that's 9-1 (he lost to Padraig Harrington), and 15-2 overall is correct as far as my quick counts go.

[turtleback]

30 minutes ago, iacas said:

Am I missing one? I count 10 total. I bolded the major winner ones:

2008 U.S. Open -- def. Rocco Mediate, first playoff hole after tying 18-hole playoff, 71-71

2007 Bridgestone Invitational -- def. Stewart Cink, fourth hole.

2006 Dunlop Phoenix -- lost to Padraig Harrington, second hole.

2006 Dubai Classic -- def. Ernie Els, first hole

2006 Buick Invitational -- def. Jose Maria Olazabal and Nathan Green, second hole

2005 Dunlop Phoenix -- def. Kaname Yokoo, fourth hole

2005 American Express -- def. John Daly, second hole

2005 Masters -- def. Chris DiMarco, first hole

2002 Deutsche Bank -- def. Colin Montgomerie, third hole

2001 NEC Invitational -- def. Jim Furyk, seventh hole

2000 PGA Championship -- def. Bob May by one shot, three holes (total score)

2000 Mercedes Championships -- def. Ernie Els, second hole

1999 American Express -- def. Miguel Angel Jimenez, first hole

1998 Nissan Open -- lost to Billy Mayfair, first hole

1998 Johnnie Walker -- def. Ernie Els, second hole

1997 Mercedes Championships -- def. Tom Lehman, first hole

1996 Las Vegas Invitational -- def. Davis Love III, first hole

So that's 9-1 (he lost to Padraig Harrington), and 15-2 overall is correct as far as my quick counts go.

You are right.  I had a brain fart and thought 'the most interesting man in golf' had won a major - obviously not.  Good catch.  Thanks.

[brocks]

14 minutes ago, turtleback said:

You are right.  I had a brain fart and thought 'the most interesting man in golf' had won a major - obviously not

No, Billy Mayfair did not win a major.

[turtleback]

54 minutes ago, brocks said:

No, Billy Mayfair did not win a major.

[Golfingdad]

56 minutes ago, brocks said:

No, Billy Mayfair did not win a major.

LOL.  It's funny how the randomest things stick in your memory, because the only real thing I think of when this guys name pops up is that tournament.  I think the reason is that I recall that particular year they moved from Riviera because Riviera was being used as a major site (senior PGA or something) so they played the Nissan at Valencia CC for one year.  I drive by it every time I visit family up north and always peek through the trees and think "Hey, the had the Nissan Open there that one time."

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Am I missing one? I count 10 total. I bolded the major winner ones:

2008 U.S. Open -- def. Rocco Mediate, first playoff hole after tying 18-hole playoff, 71-71

2007 Bridgestone Invitational -- def. Stewart Cink, fourth hole.

2006 Dunlop Phoenix -- lost to Padraig Harrington, second hole.

2006 Dubai Classic -- def. Ernie Els, first hole

2006 Buick Invitational -- def. Jose Maria Olazabal and Nathan Green, second hole

2005 Dunlop Phoenix -- def. Kaname Yokoo, fourth hole

2005 American Express -- def. John Daly, second hole

2005 Masters -- def. Chris DiMarco, first hole

2002 Deutsche Bank -- def. Colin Montgomerie, third hole

2001 NEC Invitational -- def. Jim Furyk, seventh hole

2000 PGA Championship -- def. Bob May by one shot, three holes (total score)

2000 Mercedes Championships -- def. Ernie Els, second hole

1999 American Express -- def. Miguel Angel Jimenez, first hole

1998 Nissan Open -- lost to Billy Mayfair, first hole

1998 Johnnie Walker -- def. Ernie Els, second hole

1997 Mercedes Championships -- def. Tom Lehman, first hole

1996 Las Vegas Invitational -- def. Davis Love III, first hole

So that's 9-1 (he lost to Padraig Harrington), and 15-2 overall is correct as far as my quick counts go.

Also fun to think that 3 of those guys only didn't win a major because of this exact loss to Tiger, and two more of them (and Rocco as well) did go on to win Senior majors.  Only Mayfair and the Yokoo guy have no major winning or playoff experience of any kind. :)

[GrandStranded]

Wow. You guys have made this thread totally unreadable the last 36 hours, but especially today. I don't know if you noticed, but you've made everyone with a pro Jack stance either totally ignore it, or just shake their heads reading it as you take turns upping the ante with your various theories which are all approved, even embellished by the chorus.  Good luck, enjoy your Tigerology love fest! Note of caution to those who would dare to oppose: Don't bother, it's seriously not worth it. Unless you want to be inundated with the latest chart, list or theory they are echoing to each other.  

[jbishop15]

19 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Wow. You guys have made this thread totally unreadable the last 36 hours, but especially today. I don't know if you noticed, but you've made everyone with a pro Jack stance either totally ignore it, or just shake their heads reading it as you take turns upping the ante with your various theories which are all approved, even embellished by the chorus.  Good luck, enjoy your Tigerology love fest! Note of caution to those who would dare to oppose: Don't bother, it's seriously not worth it. Unless you want to be inundated with the latest chart, list or theory they are echoing to each other.  

What you're describing is called "disagreeing with you"

[GrandStranded]

33 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

What you're describing is called "disagreeing with you"

???? Read todays posts in this thread... There isn't any disagreement at all. It's to the point now where nobody except the pro Tiger guys even want to bother posting. In the last 2-3 days myself and one other tried to argue pro Jack. Not worth it. Now you're making up lists placing value on Tiger's wins in tournaments that weren't even around when Jack played, like the Players, WGC events, and best of all, Jack's own Memorial tournament! You can't make this s**t up! LOL!! Surprised you guys don't value Tigers silly season charity tournament as a major. LOL Peace Out, guys. No need for anymore "disagreeing" with me. I'll just read and laugh. 

[Dr. Manhattan]

30 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

???? Read todays posts in this thread... There isn't any disagreement at all. It's to the point now where nobody except the pro Tiger guys even want to bother posting. In the last 2-3 days myself and one other tried to argue pro Jack. Not worth it. Now you're making up lists placing value on Tiger's wins in tournaments that weren't even around when Jack played, like the Players, WGC events, and best of all, Jack's own Memorial tournament! You can't make this s**t up! LOL!! Surprised you guys don't value Tigers silly season charity tournament as a major. LOL Peace Out, guys. No need for anymore "disagreeing" with me. I'll just read and laugh. 

 

Jack has 3 PLAYERS Championship wins. Nobody has taken that away from him, though it sounds like you want to. 

As far as counting stuff that didn't exist, how about the guys that came before Jack like Hagen? Masters didn't even exist until Hagen was in his 40's. Nobody gives him credit for the 5 Western Open wins even though they had major-esque status during Hagen's time. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Dr. Manhattan