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Ten thousand hours

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  1. 1. 10,000 hours to be an expert golfer?

    • Heck yes, Tiger had that many in by age 12
      11
    • Not if you have any real talent
      6
    • Work smarter not harder
      21
    • Yes if playing time and fitness are included
      15
    • Impossible, unless TV and BS time included
      0
    • Other
      9


58 posts / 14893 viewsLast Reply

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Your opinion in no where close to reality.

See comment about bold red text above.

I teach kids everyday that could study 10 hours a day and could never get through any college. Kids are either born intelligent or not.

This makes me very sad. I would hope that the parents of those children knew your opinion so they could provide better opportunities for them.

I have nothing further to say. Regards, -E

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... It erks me when people actually believe that if they had the time and money they could be a professional athlete. To get to the "Pro" level you have to have natural ability as well as the others stated. Many people play golf their entire lives and never get below a 10 handicap. You would inevitablily be a better golfer if you had these advantages but to say that you could be a "Pro" is SILLY!

How do you think a 10hcper spent his entire golfing career. Its probably fair to say that any Tour-professional hits more balls on the range/chips and pitches more and rolls more putts in a couple of months as practice than this guy ever did in his entire life - thats the difference!

He had a fun time out on the course - but that is barely a efficent way to practice.

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Of course you cant teach anybody to run 100 in 9.68 - you need to be born with the right - very specific - genes to be able to achieve this. Just look at the guys who win all the marathons - well, they are good at it, cuz they developed these genes over centuries.

You cant use appearance in golf as you do other more physical sports. John Daly is a great athalete that dosent need to run or jump in his sport. Hes still a great golfer, or was. And were talking about "mastery" or becoming a "pro", not simply getting better or becoming good.

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See comment about bold red text above.

Its life my friend. I didnt make them this way. Im sure your an honest hard working good person......but Ill tell you the parents of the children I teach love me and couldnt find anyone to do a better job. You have very positive outlook, which is good, but your view is so out of touch its hard to believe. I think its a neat idea that any kid can do or become anything. But until you have dealt with as many kids, coached and taught as I have it will continue to be only a neat idea....not a reality. I will never tell them they "cant" but deep down I know the truth.

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How do you think a 10hcper spent his entire golfing career. Its probably fair to say that any Tour-professional hits more balls on the range/chips and pitches more and rolls more putts in a couple of months as practice than this guy ever did in his entire life - thats the difference!

Not sure what your point is......I guess you think you could practice your way on tour as well. Its possible, maybe even for you.....but not for everyone.

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The first bold point is where we differ and I will not continue that discussion, matters of faith are for each individual.

When I say

god-given talent, I mean natural "at-birth" talent. Lets not get off on any theological side street here, i wouldn't know where to start, I play golf on Sundays.
The topic is red is ad hominem to which you can find more information here:

Do I hear a slight sense a self importance here? Thanks for the link, but your reply is more of an

ad hominen than mine was. I just thought we might cut through the crap and figure out where you are coming from. There has to be some reason why you have aligned yourself with such an opinion as this.
I realize you are a sandtrap staffer, I will not respond to further comments that you post in this thread because it will just lead to digression off topic at this point.

Again with the superiority complex, must be nice being you. What does my position have to do with anything, I certainly can be disagreed with like anyone else on this forum. Heck I even disagree with other mods from time to time.

That still doesn't answer my question. How do you teach someone to run fast and throw hard? How is that different from teaching someone to be tall or have blond hair. I seriously want to know. I would love to teach my 5 year old to be really fast!
The 9.68 faster than world record (9.69 if wikipedia is correct) for the 100-meter may have slightly tripped me up. Obviously, no one has gone that fast yet so it is not possible for many to have already accomplished it.

Yet a third time with the superiority complex. I am so sorry I was off be one hundredth of a second. I have no doubt that your children, having been taught to run really really fast, will break that record so I went a little low.

That does not change who has the potential to do it though.

Who has the potential? Again, explain to everyone on here how you can be nurtured or taught to run fast, jump high, and throw hard when you cannot teach someone to grow tall. Do that or don't post anymore.

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Of course you cant teach anybody to run 100 in 9.68 - you need to be born with the right - very specific - genes to be able to achieve this. Just look at the guys who win all the marathons - well, they are good at it, cuz they developed these genes over centuries.

Very true yet some people on this forum would somehow disagree with this.

BUT - lets get back to golf - you dont need to inherited such specific genes to excel in this sport - just look at the wide varity of people who suceed in golf (Daly vs. Woods dont have too much in common and still achieved to become major champions). A general flexibility and fast muscles is pretty much a solid base you can build upon.

While such skills as running fast and the lot might not be a genetic prerequisite for golf, I still believe there is a natural talent that sets really good golfers apart. Just like running fast, you cannot teach someone to hit the ball 300 yards. Some people have a natural ability. If you look at professionals down to very good amateurs you will find out they always had a knack for golf. I am a scratch golfer. I shot over 100 one time in my entire life. I made myself a 10 handicap without practicing or playing more than 10-15 times a year and without taking a lesson. I know guys that have been playing for years take 10 lessons a year and can't break 100. They just don't have the athletic talent or the hand-eye coordination, to be a successful golfer. They love the sport, they just won't ever be very good no matter how hard they try.

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Natural ability is a cop out.

My original opinion.

You guys are completely wrong.

I am not sure how anyone can be wrong on a matter of opinion.

Not an opinion, its pretty much a fact until you can tell me how to teach someone to run the 100 meters in 9.68 and throw a baseball 95 mile per hour.

Appearently at this point is should have corrected another logical fallacy it is known as argumentum ad ignorantiam found again here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance The fact that this disucussion is taking place indicates that natural ability is not fact. Otherwise it would be intuitively obvious to the most causual of observers.
Again with the superiority complex, must be nice being you.

The formal nature of my response was not intended to take a superior position. I would just rather discuss things for their own merit instead of discrediting the individual.

Oh and to answer your question, you teach someone to be fast by putting in their time, believing in themselves, making sacrifice, giving them a solid base that they can fail to and pick themselves up again and having dedication to the thing they want to excel in and to ignore all the people in the world that will tell them that they are not good enough, not strong enough, not genetically pedisposed to be a top performer. Your other question, hair color and height are a result of the combination of the genes of the parents and they are physical traits. "Fast" I will assume you are taking the position of a large number of "fast twitch muscles" seeing that average people have a mix of both and that they can grow through exercise, the development is largely left to the individaul. However, if you have all the fast twitch muscles in the world and you go out there thinking you are going to lose, you will and someone with the right attitude and a bit more slow twitch very well could beat you. Finally, the relevance of your position is you are expected to be a moderator and while your first attack nearly lead me down the wrong path, the second one of "superiorty" is mearly a glancing blow. I could have easily gone down the rabbit hole and severly attacked your character, but that much as this post and now this entire thread would have been futile. Now to take my own advice, I really am done. -E

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My original opinion.

If your thinking were correct the hardest worker would always be the best at their skill or trade. Everyone who has ever competed knows this is rarely the case.

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Not an opinion, its pretty much a fact until you can tell me how to teach someone to run the 100 meters in 9.68 and throw a baseball 95 mile per hour. If being able to do these types of things was entirely based on free will, don't you think there would be more people doing them?

if any one with out god given talent could go pro by hard work we would have so many more pro's and anyone could get a sponsor work hard then pay that sponsor 10% on what he payed after they made money on the tour you need good given talent

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In my own opinion, and having only skimmed the previous posts, I will say this:

Some things are "at birth" types of talents.

Golf isn't necessarily one of them. Perhaps being a super-long driver is, but "being good at golf" is not. Corey Pavin and Tom Kite have won more majors on the PGA Tour than a lot of guys.

And someone who throws 85 MPH might be able to throw 95 MPH with training and technique. MLB still has pitching coaches, after all. Bad example.

You might have a leg up as a golfer if you're athletic and good, but without the training and dedication, you'll be surpassed eventually. I've seen it happen several times.

Being great at golf requires not only some at-birth athleticism, but dedication and hard work. BOTH. And the latter is more important (see again Tom Kite, Corey Pavin, etc. ).

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Totally not true!! There are thousands of guys who have played golf their entire lives, had good teachers, and plenty of money and time to devote to the game and never become a professional golfer. It erks me when people actually believe that if they had the time and money they could be a professional athlete. To get to the "Pro" level you have to have natural ability as well as the others stated. Many people play golf their entire lives and never get below a 10 handicap. You would inevitablily be a better golfer if you had these advantages but to say that you could be a "Pro" is SILLY!

100% agreed. Making it to the highest level in any sport still takes a great deal of natural ability. Tiger showed that at an incredibly young age. He then worked harder than everyone else to become the player he is. If he had not gotten out of the highchair and made a good swing his dad may have just thought it was cute and never done anything with it. Look at some of these guys who play high school basketball and football. They mature early, work incredibly hard and rack up big stats. Then they end up in college and are being dominated by better athletes who may not work as hard as them.

When you combine the natural ability with the hardest worker and the guy with the drive to win you get a special athlete. Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan. To say that anyone can do this by working hard enough is crazy.

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In my own opinion, and having only skimmed the previous posts, I will say this:

I think that both Pavin and Kite have a natural talent not possessed by every person that picks up a club. Being able to hit a ball a long way, while a natural talent for the most part, is by no means a talent that will lead to the PGA tour by itself or even one that will keep someone out who doesn't possess it.

I still believe that the people who are best at what they do, the top echelon, have a natural ability not everyone has. Whether that talent be athletic or not.
And someone who throws 85 MPH might be able to throw 95 MPH with training and technique. MLB still has pitching coaches, after all. Bad example.

Having a baseball background I have to disagree somewhat. While hard work is always important, there are so few people who have the natural ability to throw 95 mph that it has to be a natural talent. You either have a live arm or you don't, there's no faking it. Training and proper technique may allow a player to throw a tad harder, but pitchers at the higher levels train to help stay injury free and increase endurance on the mound, not to try and throw harder. I played baseball with several eventual major leaguers and a couple of them even ended up all-stars, none of them worked any harder than the rest of us, they had a natural gift that made them better.

You might have a leg up as a golfer if you're athletic and good, but without the training and dedication, you'll be surpassed eventually. I've seen it happen several times.

I never said talent was a way to get around good hard work. This is especially true in golf, maybe in more so than in any other sport. Practice and hard work are so important in golf. I wouldn't even argue that in golf it is more important than natural ability.

Golf is a interesting sport in the way that some very natural athletes, that are good in most other sports, have a difficult time playing golf. I think golf takes a special set of talents or skills that are possibly more learnable than skills in other sports. Maybe because golf can be played in so many ways. You can be a bomber that attacks a golf course with length, or a Pavin type that grinds their way around hitting a multitude of shots. Neither way is wrong, its just you have to use your natural abilities to determine that best way for you individually. In contrast, with a sport like football, if you are not 6-4 and 300lbs, all the practice in the worlds isn't going to make you an offensive lineman. If you can't run the 40 in less than 4.8 sec. you are not going to be a wide receiver or corner back. In baseball if you can't run fast enough, or throw the baseball with enough velocity, no amount of work is getting you by that fact. In golf if you can't hit the ball 300 yards then thats okay learn to grind and manufacture shots, become a master of the wedge. There are many ways to win a golf tournament. That being said though, if you can't chew gum and walk at the same time you aren't making it on the PGA Tour anytime soon. The best still have that little something extra.

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I think that both Pavin and Kite have a natural talent not possessed by every person that picks up a club.

Prove it?

In other words, I'm not terribly interested in debating things which can't be debated. Especially when you say things like "every." Obviously they have a talent not possessed by literally EVERY person, but nobody can even quantify which side of the median they're on.
Having a baseball background I have to disagree somewhat. While hard work is always important, there are so few people who have the natural ability to throw 95 mph that it has to be a natural talent.

I didn't say everyone can throw 95 MPH with training or hard work alone. But I've seen golfers increase clubhead speed by 20 MPH with proper technique, and baseball players have increased their speeds with proper technique, too.

"Natural ability" may give someone a leg up, but that's about all it gives 'em. They've still gotta take it from there.
In baseball if you can't run fast enough, or throw the baseball with enough velocity, no amount of work is getting you by that fact.

And yet baseball has a nice history of pitchers who did really well without even a 90 MPH fastball. How fast is Tim Wakefield's fastball again? Zane Smith was my favorite pitcher as a kid (for the Pirates), and his fastball topped out at about 88 MPH. Guy threw more complete-game one-hitters than I can possibly remember, though.

In the end, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You (seem to) think that every athlete has some extra natural ability. I think that while that may be true occasionally or even the majority of the time, it isn't necessarily required to excel. Quite often, it seems to me, that "key thing" isn't necessarily fast-twitch muscles in the right place or a certain body size or shape, but mental and emotional aspects that would lead to success in a wide majority of fields. Tiger Woods might have been good at all sorts of endeavors - athletic or otherwise - because he has the right mindset to be dedicated. I've seen and heard from plenty of late bloomers. Ben Hogan wasn't even the best caddie player at his golf course, but he dug it out of the dirt, and he's said several times that his biggest weapon was his mind. Bobby Jones said the same thing, as has Nicklaus, Tiger, and others. Mental toughness, it seems to me, would lead to success in all sorts of fields. It just so happens that these guys chose golf. How far do you think they'd have gotten only on their natural skills? This thread seems to be about 10,000 hours. How good would Tiger be if he only practiced a few hours a month? He might not even be banging around the mini tours. He might be a 4 handicapper at little club somewhere. The "natural ability" you seem believe people every golfer (or baseball player, or football player) has will get you so far, training and dedication and other non-physical traits will carry you the rest of the way. John Daly has a lot of that "natural ability." Imagine what he could have accomplished if he had a little of that "dedication" too.

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You might have a leg up as a golfer if you're athletic and good, but without the training and dedication, you'll be surpassed eventually. I've seen it happen several times.

I couldnt agree with you more. A few years ago when i started playing i couldnt beat him for my life. Two years later we were about equal even though i practiced at least 100x more than he did. Now there is no comparison. He shoots 46ish and i can shoot 35 from 2 tee sets further back then him. Basically, no matter how much talent you have you will get surpassed by other without that talent if you dont work hard at it.

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Prove it?

Prove it? Obviously you cannot prove talent, the best I can fall back on is why doesn't everyone who tries hard and works at it succeed? What makes some people better than others? Luck?

I didn't say everyone can throw 95 MPH with training or hard work alone. But I've seen golfers increase clubhead speed by 20 MPH with proper technique, and baseball players have increased their speeds with proper technique, too.

The amount of improvement possible in golf is much bigger than it is in pitching. Throwing a ball is a much more natural movement than hitting a golfball.

And yet baseball has a nice history of pitchers who did really well without even a 90 MPH fastball. How fast is Tim Wakefield's fastball again? Zane Smith was my favorite pitcher as a kid (for the Pirates), and his fastball topped out at about 88 MPH. Guy threw more complete-game one-hitters than I can possibly remember, though.

Throwing hard is not a prerequisite for being a good pitcher. Movement, control, and breaking stuff set pitchers apart. Wakefield is a bad example, as how many good knuckleball pitchers have there been? I might hypothesize that the ability to throw a good knuckleball is a very special talent in its own right that

very few possess. I know I never could do it.
In the end, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You (seem to) think that every athlete has some extra natural ability. I think that while that may be true occasionally or even the majority of the time, it isn't necessarily

Sure there are people out there that make is on average talent and extreme work ethic. But their ability to drive themselves is a talent in itself that few people have. More of a mental talent.

The point I am making is I do not buy that everyone out there is a blank slate. Some people are born with a predetermination to be good at something more so than the general public. Some people are smarter, faster, stronger, and have more dexterity than others.
Quite often, it seems to me, that "key thing" isn't necessarily fast-twitch muscles in the right place or a certain body size or shape, but mental and emotional aspects that would lead to success in a wide majority of fields. Tiger Woods might have been good at all sorts of endeavors - athletic or otherwise - because he has the right mindset to be dedicated.

Did I say somewhere, anywhere, that talent alone is enough? I grew up in a household with a football coach, all I ever heard was work hard and be mentally tough. There is a huge mental side to all sports. Whether being mentally tough is a learned talent or not I don't know but some people have it and others do not.

As far as a "key thing" I don't know if its the same for everybody, some people are super talented and some are more mentally tough.
The "natural ability" you seem believe people every golfer (or baseball player, or football player) has will get you so far, training and dedication and other non-physical traits will carry you the rest of the way. John Daly has a lot of that "natural ability." Imagine what he could have accomplished if he had a little of that "dedication" too.

I agree, but on the same side I think work, dedication and practice alone with no natural talent will only take you so far as well.

This is not a argument against working hard, a good work ethic is the most important aspect of any successful person. You gave a great example, John Daly, the guy got by on talent alone for so long that it finally caught up to him. I am not arguing any of these ideas except for the one stated (not by you) where each and every person born on this planet has the same physical talent level, and that work ethic alone sets us apart. I don't buy that.

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Obviously you cannot prove talent, the best I can fall back on is why doesn't everyone who tries hard and works at it succeed? What makes some people better than others? Luck?

Countless things, ranging from your "natural ability" to poor instruction and others.

I am not arguing any of these ideas except for the one stated (not by you) where each and every person born on this planet has the same physical talent level, and that work ethic alone sets us apart. I don't buy that.

I don't either. And I don't think anyone else truly does either, or else we'd all literally be the same height, shape, etc.

I might hypothesize that the ability to throw a good knuckleball is a very special talent in its own right that

And I might hypothesize that with proper instruction you could.

In the end, this whole discussion is about stuff that can't be measured, quantified, or known with any certainty whatsoever. I do know for a fact that nobody reaches the highest levels of anything on "natural ability" alone, and I do know that everyone can improve with proper instruction/training and proper practice. And that's where it ends for me.

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Note: This thread is 3800 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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