Rules Question: Water/Provisional

[saltman]

Honest Question

This is actually a really good question. Provisionals aren't just for OB, but lost balls, ie: hitting into a non-hazard knee high fescue. There are several situations in which I would simply want to play my provisional under the "assumption" the ball is lost. Is that my right?

[jonnythan]

This is actually a really good question. Provisionals aren't just for OB, but lost balls, ie: hitting into a non-hazard knee high fescue. There are several situations in which I would simply want to play my provisional under the "assumption" the ball is lost. Is that my right?

http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14253#LostBall It's my understanding that you can basically declare a ball lost without looking for it at all. Just take the stroke and distance and hit another.

[blcorn80]

http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14253#LostBall

Correct. However, I don't think you can hit a ball into a bad spot, hit a provisional, look for and locate your original and

then declare it lost and chose to play your provisional.

[iacas]

Glad you guys straightened it out. Kudos to mruseless for getting it right from the get-go.

[David in FL]

Correct. However, I don't think you can hit a ball into a bad spot, hit a provisional, look for and locate your original and

You're absolutely right. By definition, once you find your original ball, your provisional is no longer an option.

[iacas]

Correct. However, I don't think you can hit a ball into a bad spot, hit a provisional, look for and locate your original and

Right.

It's my understanding that you can basically declare a ball lost without looking for it at all. Just take the stroke and distance and hit another.

In effect, that'd basically be the same thing as immediately declaring your ball unplayable, right.

But you can't declare a ball lost. No way, no how. The only thing a player can really declare in regards to his ball is that it's unplayable. If you take the stroke-and-distance penalty for an unplayable (the only option you have without locating the original ball), it ends up being the same as a lost ball, but you can't "declare" your ball lost. It is lost or it isn't lost - you can choose not to look for it (though that makes you an awfully shady person, frankly), but you can't prevent your opponent from finding it. There are certain conditions in which your ball is DEEMED to be lost - like "looked for five minutes, didn't find it" - but "player says so" is not one of them.

[jonnythan]

It is lost or it isn't lost - you can choose not to look for it (though that makes you an awfully shady person, frankly), but you can't prevent your opponent from finding it. There are certain conditions in which your ball is DEEMED to be lost - like "looked for five minutes, didn't find it" - but "player says so" is not one of them.

OK, interesting. What are those conditions? I don't exactly see them spelled out in the official rules, but it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

[saltman]

Right.

Now I am getting more confused. If I hit a provisional under the assumption that the ball is likely lost in a non-hazard area. You then find your original ball in that area but "declare" it unplayable and determine the stroke and distance penalty is the best option. Are you saying you are not able to play the provisional which you already hit? The assumption being that provisional was made for the purposes of lost ball and not unplayable? So at this point my only option would be two clubs relief or walk back and hit from the original spot, but that provisional is now out of play? Can I declare that I am hitting a provisional for dual purposes, the ball is either A) lost or B) unplayable?

[blcorn80]

Now I am getting more confused. If I hit a provisional under the assumption that the ball is likely lost in a non-hazard area. You then find your original ball in that area but "declare" it unplayable and determine the stroke and distance penalty is the best option. Are you saying you are not able to play the provisional which you already hit? The assumption being that provisional was made for the purposes of lost ball and not unplayable? So at this point my only option would be two clubs relief or walk back and hit from the original spot, but that provisional is now out of play? Can I declare that I am hitting a provisional for dual purposes, the ball is either A) lost or B) unplayable?

No. You may only play a provisional for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard or OB. You may not play a provisional for a ball that may or may not be unplayable.

[Fourputt]

http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14253#LostBall

A ball cannot be "declared" lost. It CAN be declared unplayable, and that decision is completely at the player's discretion.

OK, interesting. What are those conditions? I don't exactly see them spelled out in the official rules, but it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

One of the most important sections of the Rules of Golf is Section II - Definitions. It's the first place to look when you need the meaning of any term or phrase as used in golf.

Definition of lost ball:

Lost Ball A ball is deemed "lost" if: a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a); or d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1); or e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

[Slim 11]

You

Not sure I understand this comment. Are you implying that one could take a penalty and hit another ball just because they don't like the first shot? Ex. If I were to duff a shot off the toe and end up only a few yards forward in the rough and behind trees that may take me more than one shot to get back to my basic first position, I could just take that ball out of play, take a penalty and hit a new shot from the original spot?

I can't imagine this is your implication and I am certain it is not allowed.

[jonnythan]

One of the most important sections of the Rules of Golf is Section II - Definitions. It's the first place to look when you need the meaning of any term or phrase as used in golf.

Well that's what I was reading (I linked to that exact definition in my post). Going strictly by that definition of lost ball, a ball is deemed lost immediately when I place another at the spot of the shot and take a stroke. I don't even need to wait for the first ball to land.

That's where my confusion is.

[Slim 11]

Okay... kind of thinking this through as I go so I apologize for the number of posts....

What blcorn is saying is that under the definition of an unplayable lie, a player has sole discretion to deem the ball unplayable and take a stroke and distance penalty (or a couple other options based on where the ball lay).

I guess, strictly speaking, this is allowed but I have to imagine it could be pretty frowned upon. IMO if you can get your club on it, you should play it.

[Fourputt]

Not sure I understand this comment. Are you implying that one could take a penalty and hit another ball just because they don't like the first shot? Ex. If I were to duff a shot off the toe and end up only a few yards forward in the rough and behind trees that may take me more than one shot to get back to my basic first position, I could just take that ball out of play, take a penalty and hit a new shot from the original spot?

Yes. You are in effect declaring the first ball unplayable under Rule 28.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

[saltman]

No. You may only play a provisional for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard or OB. You may not play a provisional for a ball that may or may not be unplayable.

So the provisional I already hit is in fact useless. I need to brush up on the rules!

[Fourputt]

So the provisional I already hit is in fact useless. I need to brush up on the rules!

The provisional ball only becomes the ball in play when the original ball is found out of bounds or is not found within the 5 minute search limit. If the original ball is found in bounds, even if in a water hazard, then the provisional ball is abandoned.

[blcorn80]

I guess, strictly speaking, this is allowed but I have to imagine it could be pretty frowned upon. IMO if you can get your club on it, you should play it.

I think that what we have to remember sometimes is that it is not the sole purpose of the ROG to punish players for bad shots. Quite often the ROG can be used to a player's advantage and every player is well within their rights to use them to their advantage if the opportunity presents itself (which is why you can sometimes see some pretty awkward stances/swings from pros campaigning to get free relief from cart paths or other obstructions).

[opie]

The provisional ball only becomes the ball in play when the original ball is found out of bounds or is not found within the 5 minute search limit. If the original ball is found in bounds, even if in a water hazard, then the provisional ball is abandoned.

Where is the rule that says you

HAVE to look for a ball? I'm looking and honestly haven't found it yet