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Rules Question: Water/Provisional


Wazzu8
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Where is the rule that says you

There isn't one. Stop looking.

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I think that what we have to remember sometimes is that it is not the sole purpose of the ROG to punish players for bad shots. Quite often the ROG can be used to a player's advantage and every player is well within their rights to use them to their advantage if the opportunity presents itself (which is why you can sometimes see some pretty awkward stances/swings from pros campaigning to get free relief from cart paths or other obstructions).

That's a good point. I suppose I just don't think of those "opportunities" when I am playing. Maybe it is a lack of in depth knowledge of the rules. For the most part, I don't think I would feel very good about myself or my game if I were "stretching" the rules in certain ways. I imagine, though, that it would be pretty rare to be in a situation where taking a stroke penalty and re-hitting would cause much of an advantage. You'd have to be in a spot where it would take you at least two shots to get to somewhere reasonably playable.

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Irons: Cobra 3100H/I 3-PWSW: Pixl 56*Putter: Monza Rossa MalletBall: Slazenger Raw Feel

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You'd have to be in a spot where it would take you at least two shots to get to somewhere reasonably playable.

Such spots do exist, and allowing a "drop-and-replay" at any time would nullify them.

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Such spots do exist, and allowing a "drop-and-replay" at any time would nullify them.

Agreed. Just saying that it doesn't happen too often. Right now I can't think of a situation I've ever been where I could get the club on the ball and not think I should be able to get back into an open area for my next shot. Of course, trying to skirt past a few trees and not making it has happened before and, in hindsight, I would have been better off with the penalty and place. Guess I'm usually too confident in being able to get back in play (not always rightfully so).

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Driver: Cobra F-Speed 10.5*
3 wood: Cobra F Speed
5 wood: Cobra F Speed
Irons: Cobra 3100H/I 3-PWSW: Pixl 56*Putter: Monza Rossa MalletBall: Slazenger Raw Feel

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OK, interesting. What are those conditions? I don't exactly see them spelled out in the official rules, but it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

Yeah, in the definitions, but Fourputt beat me to it.

Now I am getting more confused. If I hit a provisional under the assumption that the ball is likely lost in a non-hazard area. You then find your original ball in that area but "declare" it unplayable and determine the stroke and distance penalty is the best option. Are you saying you are not able to play the provisional which you already hit?

That's correct. You can't hit a provisional for a potentially unplayable ball. Only a ball potentially lost or OB.

Can I declare that I am hitting a provisional for dual purposes, the ball is either A) lost or B) unplayable?

No. You can never hit a provisional in case of a potentially unplayable ball.

Not sure I understand this comment. Are you implying that one could take a penalty and hit another ball just because they don't like the first shot? Ex. If I were to duff a shot off the toe and end up only a few yards forward in the rough and behind trees that may take me more than one shot to get back to my basic first position, I could just take that ball out of play, take a penalty and hit a new shot from the original spot?

Of course that's fine. Declaring yoru ball unplayable is always an option.

Where is the rule that says you

Why wouldn't you look though? The penalty for a lost ball is as bad as it gets - stroke and distance - so if you do find your ball you always have the option to declare it unplayable and take stroke and distance. OR perhaps two clublengths will work, or maybe it'll even be playable.

Not looking makes no sense (unless it'd be physically impossible or whatever - like you'd have to walk through a ton of mud or something to get to where your ball should be).

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Agreed. Just saying that it doesn't happen too often. Right now I can't think of a situation I've ever been where I could get the club on the ball and not think I should be able to get back into an open area for my next shot.

I'll give a quick example that I actually saw happen in a tournament round:

Player A is faced with a 10-foot downhill (I think birdie) putt to a hole on the precipice of the false front of an elevated green. The player misses the putt, the ball rolls down the false front and comes to rest some 25-30 yards off and 20 feet below the green. The player chose to play the ball as it lied, but left the pitch shot about 10 feet short and the ball rolled all the way back to his feet. He is now hitting 5 from 25 yards off the green whereas he could have declared it unplayable from the get-go and played his 5th shot from 10 feet (and much more carefully this time). Within the rules? Yes. Would it be frowned upon by the other players? Perhaps -- I guess it depends on where he finished.
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I'll give a quick example that I actually saw happen in a tournament round:

I can sort of see the logic in that except that the player has to assume that he can't handle the chip. And if he can't handle the chip, chances are he is going to bone the putt again and be in even worse shape.

Like I said, I guess it is a matter of confidence.

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Irons: Cobra 3100H/I 3-PWSW: Pixl 56*Putter: Monza Rossa MalletBall: Slazenger Raw Feel

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Why wouldn't you look though? The penalty for a lost ball is as bad as it gets - stroke and distance - so if you do find your ball you always have the option to declare it unplayable and take stroke and distance. OR perhaps two clublengths will work, or maybe it'll even be playable.

Take a look at my example with Mickelson earlier in the thread. He didn't want anyone to look because if he took stroke-and-distance, he wasn't guaranteed to end up in as good a spot as his provisional. He would have rather been able to use the provisional that was in a great spot.

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So lets say I had not looked for my ball and found it in the water. I then declare it OB, play my provisional and take a 5? Would that be correct?

Obviously, I'm not going to, this is more of just a rules question.

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I can sort of see the logic in that except that the player has to assume that he can't handle the chip. And if he can't handle the chip, chances are he is going to bone the putt again and be in even worse shape.

Agreed. It's one of those situations where hindsight is 20/20. Sometimes as golfers I think we fall into the trap of assuming we are always going to execute the shot we are attempting. I suppose it's a fine line between envisioning yourself successfully executing a tough shot and ignoring the potential setbacks from executing the shot poorly.

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Driver: FT-i (i-Mix version) - 10* w/ UST Proforce V2 (stiff)
5-Wood: RPM Redline
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So lets say I had not looked for my ball and found it in the water. I then declare it OB, play my provisional and take a 5? Would that be correct?

I assume that would be correct. However, is does not preclude someone else from locating your ball and you then being subject to playing under the rule of the water hazard.

Again, it is a matter of what you honestly believed the case to be (with your ball) and your conscience. Golf is a very self-governing game, as we all know.

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Driver: Cobra F-Speed 10.5*
3 wood: Cobra F Speed
5 wood: Cobra F Speed
Irons: Cobra 3100H/I 3-PWSW: Pixl 56*Putter: Monza Rossa MalletBall: Slazenger Raw Feel

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Agreed. It's one of those situations where hindsight is 20/20. Sometimes as golfers I think we fall into the trap of assuming we are always going to execute the shot we are attempting. I suppose it's a fine line between envisioning yourself successfully executing a tough shot and ignoring the potential setbacks from executing the shot poorly.

Yeah. Like I said before, i've tried to punch out from trees only to hit one and be in the same or worse spot. However, I am sure that the next time I'm in the situation I will be thinking I can make the shot (like we all do).

Slim 11
Driver: Cobra F-Speed 10.5*
3 wood: Cobra F Speed
5 wood: Cobra F Speed
Irons: Cobra 3100H/I 3-PWSW: Pixl 56*Putter: Monza Rossa MalletBall: Slazenger Raw Feel

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Yeah, in the definitions, but Fourputt beat me to it.

This is why I am not sure I agree that its shady to just not look. I took my medicine, a stiff cocktail of medicine mind you as stiff as it gets like you said. Why would it be shady to not look? Its more shady if you your opponent starts looking after I clearly decided the ball is lost.

My thoughts...."Gee thanks for finding it in this knee high fescue where two club lengths puts me in calf high fescue and I have to hit backwards to get out! What's that you say, oh I can go back and re-tee AGAIN, okay I will do that, would have been nice not to walk all the way back facing the pressure of another good swing just to salvage a potential double bogey." This brings me to another point, your opponent can look for the ball, but if he finds "a ball", can he actually identify it? If he finds "a ball", is there a rule that I have to walk over and verify that the ball he found is in fact my ball? Can I just tell him to go fly a kite? EDIT: It seems to me that based on the rules the Player is the only person that can identify the ball. In the case of Phil, it sounds as though he may have been able to ignore the people and gone ahead and played the provisional. Perhaps as iacas mentions its bad form, but for the life of me I cannot understand why.
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If he finds "a ball", is there a rule that I have to walk over and verify that the ball he found is in fact my ball? Can I just tell him to go fly a kite?

Yes there is a decision on that.

Yes you can tell him to go fly a kite, then you have to go over and identify the ball
27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case? A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball. If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

Mike

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Yes there is a decision on that.

oooh juicy! So who is shadier a player that just presumes the ball to be lost or the opponent who continue to look and forces him to identify the ball?

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So lets say I had not looked for my ball and found it in the water. I then declare it OB, play my provisional and take a 5? Would that be correct?

The question is confusing. How could you

not look for it and still find it in the water? In any case, you cannot declare it OB. You cannot declare it lost. You can only DECLARE it unplayable under Rule 28, and only then if it is NOT in a water hazard. A ball is only OB if it lies out of bounds. A ball is only lost if it meets the conditions in the definition of lost ball . If the ball lies in a water hazard then you proceed under Rule 26-1.

Rick

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I don't think it is shady to help your opponent find their ball. You never know. It could be sitting in a good spot that is playable and you are doing them a huge favor.

- Shane

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oooh juicy! So who is shadier a player that just presumes the ball to be lost or the opponent who continue to look and forces him to identify the ball?

Neither, it's the guy who isn't playing well but finally manage to hit a tee ball down the middle that is clearly visible from the tee box. He then turns around and announces that he thinks he can do better, declares the ball out of play, and that he will replay the shot ... just to liven things up a little and see what happens next!

Mike

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Note: This thread is 5383 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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