Should Tiger Return to Butch?

[Beretta_Shooter]

A few days have passed since Tiger blew it at the PGA. He seemed a whole different golfer compared to the 2000 season. It could be reasonably argued that Tiger Woods played his sport better in the year 2000 than any other athlete has ever played theirs.

Take a look at this link http://web.tigerwoods.com/onTour/sea...tats?year=2000

It has Tigers actual scoring average from 1997 to 2009. In the year 2000 he had an average of 68.17 which was by far his best year. Since he is not improving (in fact has gone the other way) why not go back to Butch?

[denver_nuggs_15]

It hasn't changed by much though. I'd be interested to see if other guys' averages went up as well. Courses have gotten harder and longer and I'd assume that most players' scoring averages went up. Until I see that data (and I'm lazy right now) I think it's unfair to make a decision. His increased average could be due to the difficulty of the course, not himself.

[BASHERBAKER69]

No I think he should stay with his current coach, his failure to capture the USPGA championship was due to him choking a little bit and Yang playing very well on the final day, and had nothing to do with his swing. If anything, his technique is getting better. It's the first time Ive seen Tiger a bit nervous on the course.

[iacas]

He seemed a whole different golfer compared to the 2000 season.

Yeah, a more consistent golfer who, the year after knee surgery, has finished outside of the top ten in exactly one tournament in the past 30 events, has won 22 of his last 41 events, and so on?

It could be reasonably argued that Tiger Woods played his sport better in the year 2000 than any other athlete has ever played theirs.

Tiger Woods wouldn't argue that. In fact, he said his 2009 self would whip his 2000 self, and he pointed out his consistency in the majors and how much better he's become with Hank Haney.

In the year 2000 he had an average of 68.17 which was by far his best year.

Courses are tighter, with more tucked pins and longer rough. The competition has gotten better and Tiger plays in the tougher fields these days. You can't compare 2000 stats to 2009 stats.

His winning percentage is higher the past five years than any five-year stretch he's ever had with Butch Harmon. MUCH higher. Same with his top-10 percentage. Alan and I joked about this after Turnberry, but cripes, now y'all want him to switch coaches after he finishes second in a major? Holy bejeezus.

[plugged]

Plus, Hank Haney's personality is much more suited to Tiger than Butch.

[Beretta_Shooter]

Yeah, a more consistent golfer who, the year after knee surgery, has finished outside of the top ten in exactly one tournament in the past 30 events, has won 22 of his last 41 events, and so on?

Look at these two sets of stats and try to convince me that he wasnt an all around better player in 2000 than in 2007 ( I use 2007 because I view '08 as a throw away due to injury. You can use any Haney year you wish). Not only has his stats gone to crap, but his tour rank in most catagories fell off of the face of the earth. What really jumps out at me is his driving accuracy went to hell.

http://web.tigerwoods.com/onTour/sea...tics?year=2000 http://web.tigerwoods.com/onTour/sea...tics?year=2007

[ChappyEight]

Not only has his stats gone to crap, but his tour rank in most catagories fell off of the face of the earth. What really jumps out at me is his driving accuracy went to hell.

Tiger has never been very accurate with the driver, that's his number one downfall; always has been.

Secondly, stats don't win tournaments. As they say, "that's why the play the game." This plays out in all sports. Tiger has missed 4 cuts in the last 5 years according to PGATour.com. Most guys would be happy with only 4 missed cuts in one season. Thirdly, why in the world would he change coaches win he has won 5 TIMES this year. Sure, he's disappointed to have not won a major, but the guy still has won 5 TIMES. Just in case you couldn't hear me, 5 TIMES this year. That in and of itself is a stellar season. Moreover, aside from missing the cut at Turnberry Tiger finished T6 at the Masters, 8th at the Player's, T6 at the US Open, and 2nd at the PGA Championship after leading rounds 1-3. Tiger is overscrutinized partially due to his overabundance of coverage and partially due to the extremely high bar he has set for himself. This information in conjunction with the stats and information that IACAS provided screams one thing: This thread is silly. Move on.

[kfowler]

I think it's an interesting question but I believe he should stay with Hank. All these guys are top notch instructors so I think it comes down more to who Tiger relates better to. IMO, he lost the PGA Champ because he couldn't sink the 10 footers he normally does.

[SpringBokVol]

If he wants to ditch Hank that is fine, but don't revert back to Butch. Go with someone new.

[RC]

I am biased here... Tiger was naturally a unique player unlike any to come along in golf's history. When he was with Butch, they worked on minor things and let his confidence and zest to conquer dominate. Butch liked the spotlight of being his coach a lot, probably too much for Tiger. Today he seems more mechanical, and who knows which is better. I think of it as a natural evolution of a very young man becoming his own man, and not, as Butch would say it, "one of my players." Tiger needed to become the centerpiece to complete his ascension to the top of golf's history. That would have been hard under Butch.

Do I think the young Tiger would beat the current Tiger... yes, at least some fraction of the time. The majority of the time? I do not know. But that means very little. The young Tiger had no knowledge of anything but being amazing and life has a way to adding variety to the possible outcomes of impulsive ideas -- you know more bad outcomes. There was a time Tiger would do the impossible simply because he had the idea he could do it. Is that better? I cannot answer that, but today, I see him thinking, thinking again, tossing grass to check wind over and over, questioning club selection, analyzing more. He has more knowledge, knows more about the swing, and expects certain results. There was a time when he just flashed an idea in his head and hit the shot... and it was jaw dropping. I'm not sure anyone played the 1997 Masters as he did it. He does not do that quite the same way now. But such maturing is as natural as life itself. It does not matter who his coach is, today he would be different. A better question to ponder is how exciting it would be to see the young Tiger and the current Tiger tee it up side by side, so we could selfishly watch the artistry of both periods side by side on Sunday at Augusta in 2010. That would be the sporting event of the ages.

[jonnythan]

Look at these two sets of stats and try to convince me that he wasnt an all around better player in 2000 than in 2007 ( I use 2007 because I view '08 as a throw away due to injury. You can use any Haney year you wish). Not only has his stats gone to crap, but his tour rank in most catagories fell off of the face of the earth. What really jumps out at me is his driving accuracy went to hell.

The stats comparing 2000 and 2007 don't really apply when the courses are dramatically different. You can only realistically compare stats between players or years where the exact same courses, in the same conditions, are played.

You guys have ridiculously high standards for Tiger. You want him to fire his coach after two straight victories followed by a close 2nd in a Major? He's made top-10 in 11 of 13 and won 5 of those 13 tournaments! He has 50% more FedEx Cup points than the #2 guy despite playing in 5 fewer events! Who else has won 38% of his events and finished top-10 in 85% of them? If anyone else on the entire tour had 75% of those stats it would be a gargantuan achievement.

[trumps4]

I have never understood why anyone (including him) thinks he needs a coach at all. Does anyone seriously think that Hank knows more about the golf swing than Tiger? I don't think I can be convinced of that. I can see temporarily using a "swing theorist" during an overhaul or something, but not a day to day "coach." I believe Tiger's performance over the past several years would be pretty much the same whether Butch, Hank, Me or nobody was his coach.

[jonnythan]

I have never understood why anyone (including him) thinks he needs a coach at all. Does anyone seriously think that Hank knows more about the golf swing than Tiger? I don't

Tom Brady has a QB coach. Manny Ramirez has a hitting coach. Roger Federer has a tennis coach.

Even the best players on earth have coaches. Just because you're the best at doing something doesn't mean that you're the best at analyzing something - especially when it's something you're doing yourself. Even the best on earth needs to ask someone else "how can I do it better?" and "what am I doing wrong right now?" every now and then.

[Shindig]

It has Tigers actual scoring average from 1997 to 2009. In the year 2000 he had an average of 68.17 which was by far his best year. Since he is not improving (in fact has gone the other way) why not go back to Butch?

Look also at what tournaments he played in 2000 that he won't be playing anytime soon: a handful of Birdie Fests, where the winning score is much lower than it is in majors, WGCs, and so on. The Byron Nelson, the Canadian Open, Disney tournament, etc. At the latter, he was 23 under

and didn't win . If his goal was a low scoring average, he could just go play some Fall series events, maybe play the Hope, and so on. But that's not his goal, and it isn't a proper measurement of his progress.

[Elvisliveson]

It's not his swing.

Tiger lost Sunday because he couldn't make a putt. As you get older that starts to happen under pressure.

Furthermore, his approach has changed more than his swing. When he was young he played with reckless abandon, so he would just put pedal to the metal and obliterate his opponents. He has become more of a strategist, which you have to do as you get older and start to lose some of your physical abilities.

His more conservative approach as he's gotten older and swing changes under Haney have allowed him to be in contention more often. People keep bringing up 2000, but what about 2001 under Harmon? Tiger finished out of the top ten in 3 majors. Conversely, Jack Nicklaus missed finishing in the top ten in 3 majors during the ENTIRE DECADE of the 1970s.

In pursuit of Jack's record, Tiger wanted more Niclaus-like consistency in majors and he probably looked to Jack's 19 seconds in majors as proof of the man's greatness almost as much as his wins.

And it's worked. For 3 1/2 seasons from 2005 to midway through 2008, out of 14 Majors, Tiger had 6 wins, 4 2nds, a 3rd and a 4th. That's pretty damn Nicklaus-like.

[enduro]

It's not his swing.

He's 33, not 53.

He hasn't even entered what most people consider the prime years for a golfer. I don't think he had the yips, lol. And I don't think we've seen him at his best. He burned the edges all day Sunday. Everyone has bad or average putting bad days. Like he said, he just picked a bad day to have one.

[Elvisliveson]

He's 33, not 53.

Um, 33 is the exact age Tom Watson was when he won his last major, Arnold Palmer 34.

The general consensus is that it happened because they lost their deft agressive putting touch (same style as Tiger) right about that time. I never said that Tiger wouldn't win any more majors, just stating a known historical fact.

[Beretta_Shooter]

When I posed the question I acutally was undecided and was looking for alternative views. The more I think about it the more I am convinced he should. 2000 Tiger does not barf up a 4 shot lead. One article I read actually points out that his flatter Haney swing increased the stress on his left leg.